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Margaret Thatcher
garper66




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Jun 17, 2013 04:38  Trackback URL

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Maggie was my pin up girl of the 80's

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sheepy


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Jun 17, 2013 09:57  Trackback URL

Mine too, although I'm thinking pin up on a dart board and throw arrows  

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Bogdan


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Jun 17, 2013 10:10  Trackback URL

I thought she was a great leader.



Last edited by: Bogdan - Jun 17, 2013 10:11.
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sheepy


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Jun 17, 2013 10:31  Trackback URL

This will probably start a debate that will require a thread of its own but personally I would dance on her grave.

I live in a Town that had a colliery shut because of her, the Miners strikes caused families to be at war and destroyed communities. I work in an industry that was buggered up by her too so you won't hear anything about her apart from contempt from myself personally.

And I hope my dad doesn't log on today and see "I thought she was a great leader" because he'll probably never speak to you again!

Anyway, this guy puts it a lot better than I can:





Last edited by: sheepy - Jun 17, 2013 10:37.
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onenorthernsoul
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Jun 17, 2013 10:40  Trackback URL

sheepy Trackback URL

This will probably start a debate that will require a thread of its own but personally I would dance on her grave.

I live in a Town that had a colliery shut because of her, the Miners strikes caused families to be at war and destroyed communities.

This guy puts it a lot better than I can:




She's dead,we've been here before haven't we? She was not a great leader, she was divisive and that word was used a lot after she'd died, many times as a compliment which is just odd. She must have had good points but I will tell you this, they're extremely hard to spot given that she took us to a needless conflict so as to garner votes, she ruined many livelihoods & communities within the working classes especially, and she was part of the whole obscene cover-up of Hillsborough.

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Bogdan


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Jun 17, 2013 10:50  Trackback URL

I didn't mean to get into the politics of it and I won't, but I thought it was worth pointing out there are alternative views. If anyone feels so strongly about it that they will refuse to speak to someone else as a result of it, then it's their prerogative, but it's also everyone's prerogative to have a different opinion as well, and enough people had a different opinion to keep Thatcher in office for almost three full terms.

There are constant reminders on this forum that it's all about opinions, usually applied in more trivial contexts such as kit colours and player qualities, I think it's fair game that someone change their avatar picture without them being immediately questioned on it.

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onenorthernsoul
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Jun 17, 2013 10:54  Trackback URL

bogdan Trackback URL

I didn't mean to get into the politics of it and I won't, but I thought it was worth pointing out there are alternative views. If anyone feels so strongly about it that they will refuse to speak to someone else as a result of it, then it's their prerogative, but it's also everyone's prerogative to have a different opinion as well, and enough people had a different opinion to keep Thatcher in office for almost three full terms.

There are constant reminders on this forum that it's all about opinions, usually applied in more trivial contexts such as kit colours and player qualities, I think it's fair game that someone change their avatar picture without them being immediately questioned on it.


I wasn't questioning anyone mate, least of all Garper's avatar which if he likes it then good for him. It's right down there for me with having a man u shirt in an avatar but each to their own . Besides, other than the comment on the Falklands perhaps, mine wasn't opinion, it was fact   

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sheepy


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Jun 17, 2013 11:01  Trackback URL

I don't think there is anything wrong in asking someone what there avatars is all about, I wasn't nasty and my reply was reasonably light hearted. What I said about my dad was in jest, but I'm sure as he'll he feels the same way.

As ons said, she is dead now, no point going over old ground but there is no way I could not have my say in the matter.

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Bogdan


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Jun 17, 2013 11:09  Trackback URL

Cool.

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onenorthernsoul
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Jun 17, 2013 11:11  Trackback URL

sheepy Trackback URL

I don't think there is anything wrong in asking someone what there avatars is all about, I wasn't nasty and my reply was reasonably light hearted. What I said about my dad was in jest, but I'm sure as he'll he feels the same way.

As ons said, she is dead now, no point going over old ground but there is no way I could not have my say in the matter.


I have never fallen out with friends over politics, and believe me, I'd probably be morally justified in completely disowning some close friends these days. And you friends on here, I wouldn't dream of getting into a ruck with, friendship means infintely more than someone's political views. I too was surprised at Garper's avatar, and I'm sorry for probably over reacting to Bogdan's comment, but all is well here, no bitterness or disrespect intended to anyone who sees things differently    

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sheepy


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Jun 17, 2013 11:19  Trackback URL

Exactly, as they say lifes too short :-)

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johnh
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Jun 17, 2013 13:46  Trackback URL

I don't think politics (or religion) should be discussed on a football website. However, I would just make the comment, having lived through the 1970's, that, having voted several times for both major parties (depending on which party I thought would do best for the country at that time), if Margaret Thatcher hadn't got in when she did, this country would be in a far greater mess than it is now. At the time of her election the country was speeding down a very steep hill with no brakes. She did a lot that many (including me) disagreed with but on balance the positives far outweighed the negatives. In my opinion she was second only to Winston Churchill in terms of her contribution to the welfare and stability of the country over the last 100 years.
This is the last time I will ever post anything to do with politics (or religion)  

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dlw10




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Jun 17, 2013 14:14  Trackback URL

johnh Trackback URL

I don't think politics (or religion) should be discussed on a football website. However, I would just make the comment, having lived through the 1970's, that, having voted several times for both major parties (depending on which party I thought would do best for the country at that time), if Margaret Thatcher hadn't got in when she did, this country would be in a far greater mess than it is now. At the time of her election the country was speeding down a very steep hill with no brakes. She did a lot that many (including me) disagreed with but on balance the positives far outweighed the negatives. In my opinion she was second only to Winston Churchill in terms of her contribution to the welfare and stability of the country over the last 100 years.
This is the last time I will ever post anything to do with politics (or religion)  

My exact thoughts in a nushell John. Well said.

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sheepy


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Jun 17, 2013 14:29  Trackback URL

The thing about this particular specific debate on politics is that her reign affected different people in different ways and having read what a few have said on here and other websites everyones perspective on her is pretty much different and in my case, pretty much set in stone.

She did do a few things that were good for the country, I have no problem at all acknowledging that, but for me and bare in mind I live in a Town that had a mine shut in 1983 and is smack bang in the middle of massive mining communities such as Castleford and Wakefield and also bare in mind that I work in Print, I really do not think the good outweighed the bad.

That said, I have no problem with those who do see it differently and like ONS, I respect their opinions.

Its a passionate subject so hard for me not to want to chip in, but honestly this is my last bit on the subject.   

One thing is for certain, no amount of money could 'pay' me to go into the Rothwell Working Mens club (an ironic title these days) and try and suggest she did good for the country, that would be suicide   

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Bogdan


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Jun 17, 2013 14:37  Trackback URL

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I don't think politics (or religion) should be discussed on a football website.

Definitely not in the International Football topic, which I personally find the greatest sacrilege of all.

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onenorthernsoul
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Jun 17, 2013 14:42  Trackback URL

sheepy Trackback URL

The thing about this particular specific debate on politics is that her reign affected different people in different ways and having read what a few have said on here and other websites everyones perspective on her is pretty much different and in my case, pretty much set in stone.

She did do a few things that were good for the country, I have no problem at all acknowledging that, but for me and bare in mind I live in a Town that had a mine shut in 1983 and is smack bang in the middle of massive mining communities such as Castleford and Wakefield and also bare in mind that I work in Print, I really do not think the good outweighed the bad.

That said, I have no problem with those who do see it differently and like ONS, I respect their opinions.

Its a passionate subject so hard for me not to want to chip in, but honestly this is my last bit on the subject.   

One thing is for certain, no amount of money could 'pay' me to go into the Rothwell Working Mens club (an ironic title these days) and try and suggest she did good for the country, that would be suicide   


WHOA whoa! I never said I respect their comments about Thatcher! I respect them as people, those who I actually know, but sorry no, I don't respect any comments thus far on here because none of them demonstrate what good if any she did. I am saying all of this good naturedly but there isn't a smiley that's appropriate for that. But no, she was a hard line Tory, the party who by nature were in it for themselves and to earn more riches for the already rich, and stuff equality. And she was in Reagan's pocket, that idiot in the US who could have stopped all threat of nuclear war but instead chose to prolong it.

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dlw10




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Jun 17, 2013 14:49  Trackback URL

Does anyone actually think that our coal or print industries would be any bigger, better, or more advanced had Thatcher not been PM?
She was not the cause of the problems...she merely saw the inevitability of changes that were coming and she made sure that the barriers to change were brought down. As others have said she is either a villain or a heroine depending on how our own immediate welfare was affected at that time. But I agree with John that everyone would be living in a very different Britain....a much worse Britain even than we see today, had it not been for her intervention. I accept that the immediate hardships brought upon some families and comunities made it impossible for them to acknowledge the necessity of her iactions and those people will forever despise her

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sheepy


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Jun 17, 2013 15:04  Trackback URL

If ever there was a topic where we should all agree to disagree, do a high five and then get stuck into the 'greatest ever biscuit' debate then this is it   

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onenorthernsoul
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Jun 17, 2013 16:31  Trackback URL

dlw10 Trackback URL

Does anyone actually think that our coal or print industries would be any bigger, better, or more advanced had Thatcher not been PM?
She was not the cause of the problems...she merely saw the inevitability of changes that were coming and she made sure that the barriers to change were brought down. As others have said she is either a villain or a heroine depending on how our own immediate welfare was affected at that time. But I agree with John that everyone would be living in a very different Britain....a much worse Britain even than we see today, had it not been for her intervention. I accept that the immediate hardships brought upon some families and comunities made it impossible for them to acknowledge the necessity of her iactions and those people will forever despise her


Sorry, but claiming that she 'saw the inevitability of changes that were coming', and other media speak like 'she made sure that the barriers to change were brought down' is all inane blather. All that 'change' or 'progress' as some bewildered people would call it, was way over the top, and she inflicted it. She had her own agenda/manifesto, and that's fine, you voted her in, we live in a fantastic democracy, but please don't try and tell us that the mines and the printing industry needed major surgery, it's just not true, and if you're going to claim that we're in a better place because of Thatcher 30ish years ago then how about you explain it to us?. She was obsessed with her vendetta against the unions - and yes the unions needed much better controlling - but she went too far.

Regardless of how I myself suffered or not under her regime of greed and selfishness, 'greed is good', AND crookedness (Hillsborough, the miners strike, spying on the unions) and treating benefit claimers as parasites, encouraging private health against NHS, etc) I admit there have been countless worse leaders in the world, genocidical maniacs, warmongers, power mad egocentrics, she was none of that, but I can't just accept that we are in a better place now than we would have been without her, no one KNOWS that, no one. It's all very subjective of course, but even if I had enjoyed an idyllic existence under her, I could still recognize that some of the things she did against countless working class people just because she detested the unions and wanted to buy cheaper coal at the expense of our industries, were despicable. But forget all of this bluster from me, she knew that Hillsborough was being covered up, and that is absolutely unfortgivable in my mind and I am astonished, on a football forum, that there are fans who seem to forget that. And Tony Blair did a fantastic job for a while, but look where his influence has got us, and that's a God fearing man! We're possibly closer to a third world war than ever before, and he's had hand in that.



Last edited by: onenorthernsoul - Jun 17, 2013 16:52.
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isrodger




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Jun 17, 2013 16:48  Trackback URL

onenorthernsoul Trackback URL

dlw10 Trackback URL

Does anyone actually think that our coal or print industries would be any bigger, better, or more advanced had Thatcher not been PM?
She was not the cause of the problems...she merely saw the inevitability of changes that were coming and she made sure that the barriers to change were brought down. As others have said she is either a villain or a heroine depending on how our own immediate welfare was affected at that time. But I agree with John that everyone would be living in a very different Britain....a much worse Britain even than we see today, had it not been for her intervention. I accept that the immediate hardships brought upon some families and comunities made it impossible for them to acknowledge the necessity of her iactions and those people will forever despise her


Sorry, but claiming that she 'saw the inevitability of changes that were coming', and other media speak like 'she made sure that the barriers to change were brought down' is all inane blather. All that 'change' or 'progress' as some bewildered people would call it, was way over the top. She had her own agenda/manifesto, and that's fine, you voted her in, we live in a fantastic democracy, but please don't try and tell us that the mines and the printing industry needed major surgery, it's just not true, and if you're going to claim that we're in a better place because of Thatcher 30ish years ago then how about you explain it to us?. She was obsessed with her vendetta against the unions - and yes the unions needed much better controlling - but she went too far.

Regardless of how I myself suffered or not under her regime of greed and selfishness, 'greed is good', AND crookedness (Hillsborough, the miners strike, spying on the unions) and treating benefit claimers as parasites, private health against NHS, etc) I am prepared to admit there have been countless worse leaders in the world, genocidical maniacs, warmongers, power mad egocentrics, she was none of that, but I can't just accept that we are in a better place now than we would have been without her, no one KNOWS that, no one. Blair did a fantastic job for a while, but look where his influence has got us, and that's a God fearing man!


I dont think there will ever be a consensus here - however a fact is more miners lost their jobs in the 13 years prior to thatcher than whilst she was in power. I would suggest we would not have a car industry if it was not for her clamping down on the unions... our country was a joke, in terms of industrial action and the lack of productivity. Scargill screwed the miners more than thatcher did in my view - with a more moderate leader - yes they would have still lost their jobs - but their severence terms would have been better and investment in those areas devestated by pit closures might have happened.

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