Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

[johnh]

Liberal Communism could be the way forward.

What defines a great leader . Tony Blair received a 93% public approval rating during office, and look at the state of society around the world now with the consequences of invading Iraq. Terrorism the enemy of the West, created by the political elite.

Please not Teresa May. She comes across as Insincere to me, what am I talking about the all do... Its got to be a Brexiteer for me tho I think we will all agree on that?

Don't agree that its got to be a Brexiteer. Its got to be the best person for the job. In the Government the Brexiteer's are in the minority, so a smaller pool to choose from. If the best person is a Remainer they should still get the job. They are hardly likely to make decisions which are not in the interest of the Country because we are outside the EU.

[Mellor]

Mellor, I had my first vote in the 1950's. At General Elections, I have voted for both Conservative and Labour, probably about 60/40 in favour of Conservative. I always look at the state of the country at the time and the relevant manifesto's and try and make a judgement on what is best for the country at that time. I can't understand how people can support a political party like a football club and vote for them (at General Elections) regardless of the national interest. But that's just me.

In the 50s I had my first rusk

Been voting since the early 70s. One party man. It's a simple question of values for me - the Tory's & me just don't share any. When I started the pits were still king and my grandad, who lost an eye and a finger at the coal face was still around. We're Labour in our house. There's an umbilical line that I'm proud to say my kids now carry forward and won't break.

Sadly, these days, due to location, my vote is totally wasted. Time for some form of PR I reckon.

I couldn't change my football club or support a second English one for that matter. Same principle really. But that's just me

[mapperleywhite]

Corbyn is fighting the 'old guard' for control of the 'heart' of the party, what one commentator called 'the Labour brand' which has become tarnished in recent years. He has managed what Tony Benn couldn't, the top job. Whilst he might not look like a 'typical' leader I think he is a leader when he's tackling stuff he believes in and is genuinely trying to bring a bit of honesty back into politics. None of the folk standing to replace Cameron can claim that.

Will the electorate ever buy it? Debatable. Can he hold onto power against the old guard? Again debatable. Fascinating though. Everything seems to be up for grabs just now.

I'm absolutely no Labour supporter but I think Corbyn is in touch with the mood of the country, particularly that people feel disenfranchised and powerless, and that the status quo political system that has brought us to today is not effective any more. I was rather irritated by Cameron's call for him to 'Go man now' - Dave is that because he's not representative of the status quo, ie the establishment?

Our parliamentary system depends on having an effective opposition. Labour were plunged into crisis at the last election after being slaughtered in Scotland, and now further after Corbyn's lukewarm support for Remain. It's not a healthy situation, and I can't see UKIP filling the vacuum.

Oh and a final thought - Micheal Gove, I'm not going to be voting for you any time soon, ok?

[mapperleywhite]

Corbyn is fighting the 'old guard' for control of the 'heart' of the party, what one commentator called 'the Labour brand' which has become tarnished in recent years. He has managed what Tony Benn couldn't, the top job. Whilst he might not look like a 'typical' leader I think he is a leader when he's tackling stuff he believes in and is genuinely trying to bring a bit of honesty back into politics. None of the folk standing to replace Cameron can claim that.

Will the electorate ever buy it? Debatable. Can he hold onto power against the old guard? Again debatable. Fascinating though. Everything seems to be up for grabs just now.

I'm absolutely no Labour supporter but I think Corbyn is in touch with the mood of the country, particularly that people feel disenfranchised and powerless, and that the status quo political system that has brought us to today is not effective any more. I was rather irritated by Cameron's call for him to 'Go man now' - Dave is that because he's not representative of the status quo, ie the establishment?

Our parliamentary system depends on having an effective opposition. Labour were plunged into crisis at the last election after being slaughtered in Scotland, and now further after Corbyn's lukewarm support for Remain. It's not a healthy situation, and I can't see UKIP filling the vacuum.

Oh and a final thought - Micheal Gove, I'm not going to be voting for you any time soon, ok?

And just to back up my last point here's a quote headlining on the BBC 'Michael Gove: Boris wasn't up to the job' - and you had the nerve to stand on the same platform as him last week, and now you say this???

[White Knight]

Tolerance and common ground John. We could do with more of that and less 'extremism' (the common enemy).

From an outsiders view point, it is extremism that is on the up in Britain. The centre has lost a critical battle in leaving the EU and all the checks and balances that being part of a "club" offers. The Labour Party looks likely to split, the Tories are destined for weak leadership with the invigorated splinter of UKIP on it's wing crowing about pulling off this spectacular coup with only one MP. A referendum looms in Scotland and God only knows what's to happen in Northern Ireland. Common ground is not a place that will be sought by any (other than the hopeless Greens) for quite a while I fear. A push to the extremes is playing out as we speak. All very worrying.

[Mellor]

Tolerance and common ground John. We could do with more of that and less 'extremism' (the common enemy).

From an outsiders view point, it is extremism that is on the up in Britain. The centre has lost a critical battle in leaving the EU and all the checks and balances that being part of a "club" offers. The Labour Party looks likely to split, the Tories are destined for weak leadership with the invigorated splinter of UKIP on it's wing crowing about pulling off this spectacular coup with only one MP. A referendum looms in Scotland and God only knows what's to happen in Northern Ireland. Common ground is not a place that will be sought by any (other than the hopeless Greens) for quite a while I fear. A push to the extremes is playing out as we speak. All very worrying.

You're not wrong WK - somehow, someone needs to build a new coalition on the left to offer an inclusive, compassionate, electable alternative to the Tory's and UKIP. I understand why people voted Leave but leaving needed to be thought through fully before offering it as an alternative to the electorate. Similarly I understand why the Scots would want independence but using the current situation as a lever to obtain that is plain wrong IMO.

Cameron has been a shocking PM. No strategy beyond stay in power as far as I can see. The coalition with the Lib Dems (whose membership is now increasing at the rate of 1 a minute) curbed the Tory's worst excesses I think. Without the balance they provided and with only the referendum to fight the threat of UKIP/his own right wing he totally messed up.

We may emerge stronger, hope so, for now though the only person talking any sense for me is Mark Carney. Osborne's not saying much at all (already a busted flush following the budget fiasco), Cameron's demob happy and defers any serious questions with the 'that's for my successor to decide' opt out showing clearly he had no plan. Candidates to replace him do a job on each other. And as ever Murdoch's in the background pulling strings - Gove is a regular round at Rupert and Jerry's.

Food & petrol prices are expected to rise. Inflation has yet to kick in. I think a number (and rising) of key investment decisions (big companies) are on hold so jobs are at risk & race hate is allegedly on the rise. Then there's NI & Gibralter of course and Letwin, appointed to lead on BREXIT for now, a known NHS privatiser rather than a 'let's provide more money' fan.

It's early days of course and there really must be opportunities. As yet, no ones articulated those particularly well for me.

[johnh]

Agree with most (not all) of this. The main problem as I see it, is the fact that Cameron is hanging on. He is a busted flush and nothing will happen until he goes. He should have gone immediately. Hanging on means no major decisions will be taken until October, when we need to start NOW.

[daib0]

Agree with most (not all) of this. The main problem as I see it, is the fact that Cameron is hanging on. He is a busted flush and nothing will happen until he goes. He should have gone immediately. Hanging on means no major decisions will be taken until October, when we need to start NOW.

yep, it seems the EU certainly don't want to wait till October to take things forward ...

[daib0]

[birkybullufc]

Makes me smile then cringe that Nostradamus thing cos I suspect it's so near the truth.

Which brings me to this, if anyone's got the time/can be bothered to read it. Basically Gove's wife (a leaked e-mail) is pulling his strings as he tries to pull Johnson's strings and Murdoch is pulling everyone's strings. None of them, it seems, like each other particularly.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... aked-email

Good news does exist though but you have to dig deep. New Zealand has offered us their trade deal negotiators. I mentioned long ago that we don't have any after 40 years and would need to find some. Old friends deliver, job done. i wouldn't trust our old Etonian pals to buy a car let alone get a good deal with some hard nosed EU lawyer.

Oh, and a YouGov. poll has Labour ahead of The Tories again. Well, would you trust a party that creates its own exam question and still get's the wrong answer? That will reverse I expect after the Fabian society coup to oust Corbyn.

Meanwhile Nero continues to fiddle.

https://itsourfuture.org.nz/what-is-the-tppa/

I wouldn't get too excited about NZ negotiators fighting our corner. They have secretly signed off on the TPPA which could leave them exposed to the will of corporate America. Large multinationals could theoretically sue the NZ government if they don't get the tax breaks they desire. Check out the link if you want to know more.

Killjoy

On a serious point our version of that, TTIP, has I think just been rejected by the EU. Could it reappear now, for the UK only, as Cameron was dead keen and no doubt his replacement will feel similarly? Perhaps you know more?

TTIP is very similar to the TPPA.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 79688.html
Nice overview here. Who ever ends up doing our trade negotiations needs to be strong and have uk interests at heart with future generations in mind. It could be a great opportunity to fix the system going g forward. Unfortunately I fear greed and short termism will win out.