Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

[Deleted User 3289]

Sniffer... I'm melting as i speak I don't wont to appear ignorant but I thought the troubles were Catholic, Protestant related. Anyhow I don't really won't to open a can of worms about the whole issue. Just a couple of paragraphs will do...

[Sniffer]

Sniffer... I'm melting as i speak I don't wont to appear ignorant but I thought the troubles were Catholic, Protestant related. Anyhow I don't really won't to open a can of worms about the whole issue. Just a couple of paragraphs will do...

The meeting point of the Tectonic Plates of religion is where the fracture is most readily seen, that is true. The current division between the North and the South of Ireland is just the latest moment in the ever-changing Norman/English Empire. You'd have to go back 900 years to find out about the Norman Invasion of Ireland ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_in ... of_Ireland ). The land they took was gradually reduced to an area along the east coast south of Dublin know as The Pale [ The word pale derives ultimately from the Latin word pālus, meaning stake, specifically a stake used to support a fence. From this came the figurative meaning of boundary and eventually the phrase beyond the pale, as something outside the boundary].

In 1542 Henry VIII (newly broken with Rome) "took back" the rest of Ireland. He was now Protestant as were the rest of the English (his Scottish allies were Presbyterian), the Irish were still Roman Catholic.
140 years later (give or take a day or two) William of Orange (another Protestant) became William III of England replacing James II (a Roman Catholic). William (or King Billy as he is known by many) marched in to Ireland and won a few battles that are still celebrated today by the Orangemen Parades.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was established on 1 January 1801 under the terms of the Acts of Union 1800, by which the nominally separate kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland were united.

Calls for Home Rule for the Irish grew throughout the latter half of the 19th century countered by calls to stay with in the UK by the Unionists, This lead to the Easter Rising in 1916, the landslide win by Sinn Fein in 1918 General Election, the first Dail, the War of Independence, Partition and roughly where we are now.

So, in conclusion, the situation in Ireland is all about power and who rules whom. The matter of religion is almost of no consequence. It is merely a relic of the power struggles of the late Middle Ages and the early Modern Era. Unfortunately, much of the media use it as a convenient shorthand but, in reality, it is like saying a football match between Germany and Spain is a match between Protestantism and Catholicism.

I think I deserve the Ubergeek emoticon for that.
:ugeek:
Sorry it was more than 2 paragraphs and I'm sure others could give a better explanation.

[Deleted User 3289]

Good work that Sniffer... Nice little history lesson that was. So it seems sections of Northern Ireland would rather remain British, than be part of a united Ireland. I'll think i'll leave it at that then.

[White Knight]

Great summary Sniffer, on one of the more complicated topics anyone would want to take on

The Gaelic Irish had fought for independence of British rule for centuries and Ulster was a hotbed of resistance, under the O'Neill clan in particular. However the O'Neill's lost a key battle in 1601 which broke their hold on Ulster and their leaders fled to Spain. Once they were gone James 1 saw his chance to reduce the resistance from here by taking the land that was O'Neill clan territory and from the Catholics population and gave it to Scottish and English settlers. Unlike around other parts of the island where this also happened, i.e. Munster, these settlers never really mixed or inter married with the native population. They always saw themselves as British and their culture and customs were always British. Unionists of today are mostly descendents of these people and maintain their Britishness as a key part of their idenity and culture.

For the most part the Catholics are descendents of the clans that lost the land and see themselves as Irish and part of the nationalist movement to break away from Britain. When Ireland won it's independence in 1921, the Unionist people did not want to leave the UK. They wanted to stay British and had a reasonable fear of being a minority in a Catholic, nationalist dominated country. Hence the border and partition, which in turn left a Catholic, nationalist minority in a Protestant, Unionist majority run Northern Ireland, when they wanted to join the south.

So, the ultimate conundrum. Ireland doesn't do problems by half measures! That is why the Good Friday Agreement is so important because it stopped the war and allowed normal life to return to Northern Ireland. Anything that could impinge on this is not good. Meddling with the border due to Brexit could stir unnecessary aggravation and that's why the border issue is important.

That's my own view from the south, anyone from NI may see it differently.

[White Knight]

P.S. the O'Neill's have come back to take control in the meantime - of both Irish national teams!

[Deleted User 3289]

Crickey it sounds like another referendum could be needed to decide what the majority of the North Irish people want? Never mind Brexit!

Another good summery WK.

P.S. the O'Neill's have come back to take control in the meantime - of both Irish national teams!

You can't keep a good clan down.

I bet one thing is true? That it will be cheaper for a pint of Guinness in Belfast, than it is in Dublin... Bloody dear it was.

[Deleted User 2747]

It's not so much what I want (the full implications of BREXIT will take umpteen years to work through so they'll pass me by, it's more that BREXIT won't give those who voted for it what they want. I'm satisfied that what's wrong in the UK is nothing to do with the EU.

I'm genuinely interested in the direction of travel and see little sign of what that is. I think we're at least one great speech short of what's required, we have the sat nav but no postcode.

I've not said much on this thread as I don't actually like discussing politics on a football forum but what you say there Melloe is very much what I believe. Those who voted out will not see us achieve what they thought it would deliver. I am still very concerned that we could be left high and dry in so many aspects, not least financial. The world is too big and interconnected these days and being in the same boat as Europe, holed as she is near the water line, was, for me, far preferable to being in a small dinghy. I'm not sure we can withstand a major financial catastrophe on our own whereas I believe the whole of Europe could - as they have stood with Greece helping her out of her troubles. My hope is still that Europe will see that it has to change and does change and that we can eventually join with them again in a new alliance.

My stance is similar to you and Mellor.

[Mellor]

Two of my BREXIT fears were always the break up of the Union and the border issue in Ireland/NI. I don't pretend to understand the issues for NI anything like 'fully' (great stuff above from posters who do) but this article is thought provoking (for me at least):

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... rn-ireland

I just hope things work out OK in the end.

[Davycc]

A simple question. Do any of our English born members consider themselves French, Dutch Spanish etc? Those are borders near England. Ireland is a different country to Northern Ireland but no different than France is to England. It's a name that causes the confusion to many just because the word Ireland appears in it. Should South Korea be joined with North Korea just because it has the same name or indeed North America join with South America ? Some will say look at Germany East and West, they united and whilst there are many of would say that the British Government were just as bad as the Eastern block regime I feel that case is a little different.

I consider myself British not Irish many living here quite rightly can say they consider themselves Irish. A referendum may well be in the pipeline and I will accept whatever the outcome is, just as I have to accept the outcome of the Brexit vote. If ever there is to be a referendum on Northern Ireland leaving the United Kingdom then I would like a third tick box added to the Yes or No vote and that would be an Independent Northern Ireland or "insert new country name without Ireland in it at all."

I don't follow the fortunes of the Irish economy, I'm not up to speed with the state its in, a while back there was the Celtic Tiger, the Republics economy was booming but now and please someone correct me if I'm wrong the bubble has deflated quite a bit. I know what economy I want to stay with. I do not want a border with our friends in the south it's fantastic for both countries having no hard border but it will be a problem.. Many great steps have been taken over the past 20 years or so, we are actually getting to a stage where this generation is starting to not give a toss as to what your religion is. Ask the majority of teenagers now what the troubles were about and they look blank, well at least most of them I know do AND I LOVE THAT.

Boiled down it's a personal thing, I'm British, I'm Northern Irish I want to stay British just as British as someone from London, Leeds, Harrogate or Newcastle. There are those of my countrymen who feel as Irish as anyone from Dublin, Cork or Donegal. Who's right and who's wrong, onone we're all right.

[Deleted User 3289]

Good to hear your take Davvy.

You class yourself as British Davvy does this mean you would be happy if you were called and English man, a Scotsman or a Welshman.

Many great steps have been taken over the past 20 years or so, we are actually getting to a stage where this generation is starting to not give a toss as to what your religion is. Ask the majority of teenagers now what the troubles were about and they look blank, well at least most of them I know do AND I LOVE THAT.

This is encouraging on a whole that the younger generation are looking forward not backwards. I really do hope that in 100 years time religion will be phased out completely, imo it does and is causing a lot of trouble in the world "and some good aswell" but its about a thousand years out of date to me. I'm not sure what the new opiate of the people will be "do we need one?" but lets hope its less divisive than the old one.

I'll stick with Charles Darwin's theory and just hope that if there is a God, he understands me going for a pint on a Sunday and missing church.