The Cricket Thread

[ChilwellWhite]

Totally agree BB when I was working in an office environment the banter and giving nicknames was rife but we never fell out over it. This whole business is highly sensitive but Azeem is hardly coming out of this that well. Reputations are destroyed as institutions such as YCCC who with holding Test matches suspended, sponsors pulling out and their already well documented financial issues could see the club go into administration. I can only reiterate that there’s no place for racism in society.

[PhoenixUnited]

So Michael Vaughan’s career is pretty much ruined. I’m not denying he made a comment such as the one that’s been mentioned but it’s how it was said that’s important was it indeed “ banter “ or was it malicious ?

That’s it in a nutshell for me, where is the line drawn between the two ?.
Me and bunch of lads used to work in an office together, the things we used to say/and call to each other was in bad taste at times, but it was just banter, that’s all it was, banter. Even if Vaughan did say what he is alleged to have said, surely it was just banter, nothing malicious.

A couple of points on this for me.
Firstly, this so called banter, and I can accept that each and everyone of us will have a different idea of where the line is, normalises and pushes the margins. Designed to get one up on the other person but there is never a second thought about how the other person might feel. IMHO it's a personal attack meant to hurt whichever way you cut it. The position can't surely be that everyone was doing it back in the day so it was OK?
Second off in the case of Michael Vaughan is that we have two very opposing position and by definition one side is telling lies or the other one is making up stories.

[Another Northern Soul]

So Michael Vaughan’s career is pretty much ruined. I’m not denying he made a comment such as the one that’s been mentioned but it’s how it was said that’s important was it indeed “ banter “ or was it malicious ?

That’s it in a nutshell for me, where is the line drawn between the two ?.
Me and bunch of lads used to work in an office together, the things we used to say/and call to each other was in bad taste at times, but it was just banter, that’s all it was, banter. Even if Vaughan did say what he is alleged to have said, surely it was just banter, nothing malicious.

A couple of points on this for me.
Firstly, this so called banter, and I can accept that each and everyone of us will have a different idea of where the line is, normalises and pushes the margins. Designed to get one up on the other person but there is never a second thought about how the other person might feel. IMHO it's a personal attack meant to hurt whichever way you cut it. The position can't surely be that everyone was doing it back in the day so it was OK?
Second off in the case of Michael Vaughan is that we have two very opposing position and by definition one side is telling lies or the other one is making up stories.

Unless 'you're' the one on the end of the so-called racist banter then 'you' are not in a position to comment on how it affects. More to the point, it is more about what the person using the racist banter is hoping to achieve - is it to hurt, offend or just oneupmanship insulting?

I don't think it's fair to say someone is lying though, Phoenix - I personally think Vaughan could have easily forgotten saying it and also that it perhaps was less banter but more a careless and ignorant comment. I don't like him much TBH but I do not think he is a racist, he has possibly/probably (IMO) said something bad. He would have been wise just to say that if he had said it, he doesn't recall it but apologises and that he is a better person than that and that he abhors racism etc. Some would then say why bother saying anything like that but, by way of his outright denial, he's brought more controversy on himself and has damaged his 'career'.

This will go on and on, and many seem to prefer to forget about 'context'. Rafiq's clearly no saint himself but his mistakes are nothing near the scale of systemic institutional racism which YCCC is being shown to have been, along with ignorant, pig-headed and obstinate lacking in any genuine contrition until they were exposed.

[PhoenixUnited]

So Michael Vaughan’s career is pretty much ruined. I’m not denying he made a comment such as the one that’s been mentioned but it’s how it was said that’s important was it indeed “ banter “ or was it malicious ?

That’s it in a nutshell for me, where is the line drawn between the two ?.
Me and bunch of lads used to work in an office together, the things we used to say/and call to each other was in bad taste at times, but it was just banter, that’s all it was, banter. Even if Vaughan did say what he is alleged to have said, surely it was just banter, nothing malicious.

A couple of points on this for me.
Firstly, this so called banter, and I can accept that each and everyone of us will have a different idea of where the line is, normalises and pushes the margins. Designed to get one up on the other person but there is never a second thought about how the other person might feel. IMHO it's a personal attack meant to hurt whichever way you cut it. The position can't surely be that everyone was doing it back in the day so it was OK?
Second off in the case of Michael Vaughan is that we have two very opposing position and by definition one side is telling lies or the other one is making up stories.

Unless 'you're' the one on the end of the so-called racist banter then 'you' are not in a position to comment on how it affects. More to the point, it is more about what the person using the racist banter is hoping to achieve - is it to hurt, offend or just oneupmanship insulting?

I don't think it's fair to say someone is lying though, Phoenix - I personally think Vaughan could have easily forgotten saying it and also that it perhaps was less banter but more a careless and ignorant comment. I don't like him much TBH but I do not think he is a racist, he has possibly/probably (IMO) said something bad. He would have been wise just to say that if he had said it, he doesn't recall it but apologises and that he is a better person than that and that he abhors racism etc. Some would then say why bother saying anything like that but, by way of his outright denial, he's brought more controversy on himself and has damaged his 'career'.

This will go on and on, and many seem to prefer to forget about 'context'. Rafiq's clearly no saint himself but his mistakes are nothing near the scale of systemic institutional racism which YCCC is being shown to have been, along with ignorant, pig-headed and obstinate lacking in any genuine contrition until they were exposed.

Point taken about the lying above. I accept that it's easy to forget something said many years ago particularly an off the cuff remark. Anyway, it's a dreadful state of affairs in cricket

[Another Northern Soul]

Cut n Paste jobby of some of Vaughan's interview with Dan Walker of BBC.


Ex-England captain Michael Vaughan speaks to BBC Breakfast's Dan Walker
Former England captain Michael Vaughan says he is "sorry for all the hurt" Azeem Rafiq has gone through during the Yorkshire racism scandal.

Vaughan was named in the Yorkshire report by ex-team-mate Rafiq, who alleged he made a racist comment to a group of Asian players.

In a wide-ranging interview with the BBC, Vaughan continued to deny the claim and said he never made racist comments while at Yorkshire.

But he admitted his regret at some tweets he had sent in the past.

"It hurts deeply, hurts me that a player has gone through so much be treated so badly at the club that I love," Vaughan said.

"I have to take some responsibility for that because I played for Yorkshire County Cricket Club for 18 years and if in any way shape or form I'm responsible for any of his hurt, I apologise for that."

Asked if he ever made any racist comments during his time at Yorkshire, he said: "No I didn't. No."

Vaughan captained England in Tests between 2003 and 2008. He played his entire domestic career at Yorkshire - between 1993 and 2009 - before becoming a summariser on BBC Test Match Special.

In the interview with BBC Breakfast's Dan Walker, Vaughan, who will not be part of the BBC's Ashes coverage this winter, said:

Cricket had a problem with racism it needed to accept.
He had never heard racist language used in the dressing room but had heard things that "are not acceptable now".
He would "love" to play a part in helping Yorkshire move forward, alongside Rafiq.
He hoped to return to commentating with the BBC next year.
On the alleged racist incident
Rafiq alleged Vaughan said "too many of you lot, we need to do something about it" to him and three other players during a match for Yorkshire in 2009.

Rafiq's account was supported by former Pakistan bowler Rana Naved-ul-Hasan and England leg-spinner Adil Rashid, who said they heard the comment.

The fourth player in the group - bowler Ajmal Shahzad - previously told the Daily Mail he had no recollection of the event and "the senior guys were really good to me".

Vaughan, who did not participate with the original independent investigation, said he did not remember the incident or recognise the words it is claimed he used.

"I just remember it clearly that I was proud as punch that we had four Asian players representing Yorkshire County Cricket Club," he said.

"Nothing but a proud, senior, old pro just about to retire and absolutely delighted that Yorkshire had come so far in my time at the club."

Speaking in front of MPs, Rafiq claimed Vaughan might not remember the incident because "it doesn't mean anything to him".

"That hurts because I've always felt that every single team that I've been involved in, the biggest praise I've got as England captain for six years was that I was the kind of person that really galvanised the group," Vaughan said.

"I always felt that I was the person in the dressing room that really wanted everyone to feel included."

Asked if Rafiq, Rashid and Naved were lying, he said: "The problem with this situation is that we've got too much 'he said, he said, she said, did they say' and I think we've got to move on from accusations of conversations from many years ago.

"There's a bigger picture here."

Vaughan embarrassed by historic tweets
Historical Twitter posts by Vaughan have been widely shared on social media in recent weeks.

In 2010 he tweeted "Not many English people live in London… I need to learn a new language" and in 2017, following the Manchester Arena bombing, he answered "yes" to a question whether England all-rounder Moeen Ali should ask Muslims if they are terrorists.

Vaughan said he was embarrassed by the tweets and was now a different person.

"I apologise deeply to anyone that I've offended with those tweets," Vaughan said.

"Times have moved on and I regret those tweets. We all make mistakes and in my life I've made quite a few mistakes on Twitter, I apologise for that."

Short presentational grey line
Walker: Does it embarrass you when read back those tweets?

Vaughan: Yes.

Walker: And you feel you're a different person now...

Vaughan: Absolutely.

Short presentational grey line
Yorkshire players have also been criticised for referring to India batter Cheteshwar Pujara as 'Steve' - something Vaughan brought up on air in 2018, saying "Steve as they call him in Yorkshire because they can't pronounce his first name".

"Clearly we're in different times now," Vaughan said.

"That was three years ago - that's how much times have moved on in the three years.

"So when you start talking 12 years, 15 years, 20 years, everything is moving so quickly.

"We're in that situation now for the game, sporting dressing rooms not just cricket dressing rooms, where everyone needs to be educated."

'I heard things you would not consider acceptable now'
Rafiq, who a report found was victim of "racial harassment and bullying" while at Yorkshire between 2008 and 2018, told a committee of MPs English cricket is "institutionally racist".

He said racist language, including terms aimed at his and others' Pakistani heritage, was used "constantly" and "never stamped out" during his time at Yorkshire.

Vaughan, who retired during Rafiq's second season as a professional at Yorkshire, said he had never heard racist language used in the dressing room.

"I heard plenty of things in my 18 years as a player in a dressing room which you would not even consider to be acceptable now," he said.

"I would say any sports person that's out there from that era that says otherwise, I don't think they're telling the truth.

"There were things said and back in the day. It wasn't deemed to be offensive. It would be now."

He added: "I can apologise if I was involved in anyway shape or form with a dressing room that had a culture that wasn't inclusive for everyone.

"My recollections are all the dressing rooms that I played in that we were inclusive to everyone. But I'm more than happy for people to come forward and say you know what that wasn't the case."

[Sniffer]

Yorkshire players have also been criticised for referring to India batter Cheteshwar Pujara as 'Steve' - something Vaughan brought up on air in 2018, saying "Steve as they call him in Yorkshire because they can't pronounce his first name".

"Clearly we're in different times now," Vaughan said.

"That was three years ago - that's how much times have moved on in the three years.

"So when you start talking 12 years, 15 years, 20 years, everything is moving so quickly.

Oh yes, those unenlightened times of 3 years ago.
So much I want to say but this is a family friendly forum so I will refrain. He just makes me so angry.

[DominanceUK]

The whole situation stinks from top to bottom. I don't condone racism, hate or bullying in any way shape or form. There are many people that are at fault here including Rafiq. Nobody is perfect. I don't know what's worse, all these accusations - which some are true and some may be not or accepting a payout when the fight should be against racism itself, smacks of hypocrisy to me.

[PhoenixUnited]

Yorkshire players have also been criticised for referring to India batter Cheteshwar Pujara as 'Steve' - something Vaughan brought up on air in 2018, saying "Steve as they call him in Yorkshire because they can't pronounce his first name".

"Clearly we're in different times now," Vaughan said.

"That was three years ago - that's how much times have moved on in the three years.

"So when you start talking 12 years, 15 years, 20 years, everything is moving so quickly.

Oh yes, those unenlightened times of 3 years ago.
So much I want to say but this is a family friendly forum so I will refrain. He just makes me so angry.

For me. this is the slightest sliver or a drop in the ocean of the way that things used to be / the way things were. It is not the issue about individual people on either side of the line from back then or indeed even now. As regards the line itself, it has been moved - no doubt in my mind about that - but it is not at all defined as what is right and what is wrong. It was not in the past and argue as much as you like it is not now IMHO. And it will continue to be a moving feast

[ChilwellWhite]

Early mornings are calling as it’s soon the Ashes season. I see Ray Illingworth a true Yorkshire legend has terminal cancer, god speed Ray my thoughts are with you and your family.

[NottinghamWhite]

Jordan Thompson & Harry Brook join Hobart Hurricanes so I’ll be a Hurricane fan during the Big Bash. The competition starts on Sunday & the start here in the UK is around 08:00 approximately. HH’s first game is next Wednesday.