The blahblah of the forum

[Davycc]

Sorry - I was not aiming my comments at anyone in particular, not even at anyone on the forum - just ranting in general.

no problem sometimes things can be read different ways.

Just reading this now. It is indeed easy for written words to be taken up wrongly ( I think we've touched on this many time on the forum) No offence taken, I did have to read it a couple of times though

[Davycc]

National Service should be brought back asap - 2 years from age 18. Looking back, it was one of the best things that happened to me in my life. Instilled discipline, responsibility, respect for others and respect for oneself. I don't think you will find an ex National Serviceman who will disagree. If you do, they will probably be in a minority of one! There were the odd ones who genuinely had a raw deal, particularly those who were 'deferred' - University students etc., and who went in in their early 20's. Always felt sorry for them as they didn't seem to fit in.

I don't agree at all. The world has changed. Young people have changed, pacifism is much wider spread these days thankfully. This would seriously affect the mental health of so many young people, to be forced into something they don't agree with. Young people have been increasingly neglected over the last decade or so. Many are further and further alienated in our society.

Perhaps you could consider that all young people should be supported into further education, vocational training or armed forces training if they so wish, so they can find their own version of self-worth, responsibility and contribution to society. What about community work? There is so much deprivation and decay in so many communities. This would perhaps be more worth while and a much wider scoped experience for young people, to learn respect for their world.

99.9% of National Service recruits didn't want to go in either. Didn''t do their mental health any harm though, in fact, considerably strengthened it.

Can agree in part to what you are both saying here but the one thing I do believe is the government has a duty to its citizens to provide opportunity and not a living.
To explain my thoughts further because this is a very significant issue regarding young people.
School leavers should have good opportunities whether that is further education such as Universities or other areas. I actually believe too many are directed towards University education when we need a return to technical colleges where they can learn trades. The country actually needs Plumbers, Joiners, Builders, Electricians, car mechanics, nurses, agriculture etc among many other things (I'm sure we can all add).
The biggest mistakes the country has made in the last 50 years is the obsession everyone needs to go to Uni to be educated, no most need to start a career path as soon as they finish School. The most important thing to learn for school leavers is how to get out of bed in a morning.
Of course learning a trade also teaches discipline as you are reliant on others to teach you.

As a country we need to be able feed ourselves and build for our needs and look after each other.

Of course its not been helped by industry been run down and cheap imports, sad to say it but the government and Unions both have to share some of the blame for this. Not a blame game though the question is about looking forward and building a better place for everyone.

Of course if then there is nothing for a young person or they are incapable of bettering themselves when the opportunity is there then i will go along with John and a couple of years of tough discipline serving Her Majesty would do no harm at all.

I'm not political left or right I try to look at all situations and how they could be better and base opinion on that, wish more would do rather than the i swing to the left so the right are always wrong or vice versa i voted tory so the socialists must be wrong.

My thoughts are work together for a better world, we need the buisiness men to provide the work and the workers to provide the skills. What we don't need is the selfish spongers that are not prepared to put anything in. is it really too much to ask.

I agree with what you say here. Opportunity is everything and should apply to everyone.

I would add that when all else fails, then I think a 'community task force' would be a good alternative to the armed forces. There is so much work to be done everywhere.

Some great input here all round. Frankie the community task force is a good idea but without sounding negative many people mature and in their youth would stick to fingers up to it. Balancing that out I and I think it was mentioned earlier there are a lot of great kids and youth around but they tend to step back for fear of the peer pack setting on them. I've witnessed this many many times.

[Deleted User 728]

I would add that when all else fails, then I think a 'community task force' would be a good alternative to the armed forces. There is so much work to be done everywhere.

Frankie, I agree with you on this.
When I was talking about national service I didn't necessarily mean purely military skills. I meant a military-style foundation year followed by everyone, to teach them self-discipline, respect for authority, people around them and the world itself, but with regard to suggesting they take military careers that was only if it suited them having been offered a range of options that they could pursue.
It's a bit like an art student knowing they're creative but not being sure what to specialise in, or a more bookish sort taking General Studies A-Level before specialising at university.
Forestry, urban blight, coastal, rural, agricultural, the elderly, special needs, transport, science, the traditional trades, artisan crafts .. there are so many areas that could be on offer. As with an apprenticeship it works both ways : the student learns something that they could pursue as a living while the organisation - local, national, private, public, charity or whoever - gets some cheap labour in the short term and real talent in the long.

The real question is, have we gone too far away from this kind of mindset ?
I know there's a summer activities package that youths can do that aims to create similar opportunities but it was always organised in a naff way, making it look a bit goody-two shoes.
I think this would need a harder-edged campaign (like the ones they use for the military, ironically) and also some thinking outside the box when it comes to making people sign up. It would probably need a minimum-plus-wage (like an apprenticeship) for anyone signing up, while those who refuse receive a lower amount. The way you could avoid it would be to take up a proper apprenticeship or get sponsored by a company to enter their private training program (like tech or city companies do) or to get into uni, but only on certain courses : those where there's a short-fall of talent in the country's workforce, not media studies.

I want to say again that I am closer to being a communist than a capitalist, but on some issues we need to be proactive and not just sit on our arses ignoring people's problems.

I'm sure social issues would be reduced under such a program as fewer people feel worthless, turning to drink and drugs and anti-social behaviour to get their kicks.
Let's tackle the root-cause of all that's wrong in our society rather than just pointing at the young and the under-skilled and saying "On yer bike !" like some have done in the past ..

[Sniffer]

[Deleted User 728]

Blimey, that takes me back, Sniffer.

I take your point and a big part of me screams just let nature take its course when thinking about all this.
I grew up in a time where you would straighten up at the sight of a copper or you would listen if an adult admonished you, especially if it was a neighbour or a friend's parent because you knew it would get back to your own mum and dad.
I'm torn because I know a lot of it is down to nostalgia and I'm generally against telling people "what to do".
I keep going back to the thing John said about the costs because women would be signed up too.
For a long time now I've thought that any new builds of any kind should have unisex toilets : you go to a large ante-room with lots of sinks and hand-dryers and then through an opening in the opposite wall to a row of cubicles. You do your business, you wash your hands and you leave.
There's a restaurant like it in town and it works beautifully - it's a caribbean-themed place which doubles up as a bar with seats and tables outside and there's often lots of people "on the pull" to put it bluntly. You might wonder what could go on in those communal loos, but the surprising thing is absolutely nothing : the men up their game and behave and want to be seen to be immaculate rather than making a mess like they sometimes do, while the women are in and out sharpish rather than hanging around like they sometimes do.
Why not implement something like that ?
I don't see why you couldn't have shared sleeping facilities too. Gender is a hot topic and plenty of younger people don't want to be pigeon-holed so why not just cater for that by having shared dormitories and wash areas ?

[Sniffer]

I stayed in a shared dormitory in a hostel in Bruges one night in the 80s. The bloke from reception showed me into this big room full of bunk beds, pointed to a top bunk and said "That one's free, mate". I walked over to it slung my bag on the bed and then noticed a young woman in the bunk beneath looking at me. She was practically licking her lips as she said "You can get undressed in front of me if you like. I won't mind."

[Deleted User 728]

I stayed in a shared dormitory in a hostel in Bruges one night in the 80s. The bloke from reception showed me into this big room full of bunk beds, pointed to a top bunk and said "That one's free, mate". I walked over to it slung my bag on the bed and then noticed a young woman in the bunk beneath looking at me. She was practically licking her lips as she said "You can get undressed in front of me if you like. I won't mind."

What happens in Bruges ...

[Sniffer]

I stayed in a shared dormitory in a hostel in Bruges one night in the 80s. The bloke from reception showed me into this big room full of bunk beds, pointed to a top bunk and said "That one's free, mate". I walked over to it slung my bag on the bed and then noticed a young woman in the bunk beneath looking at me. She was practically licking her lips as she said "You can get undressed in front of me if you like. I won't mind."

What happens in Bruges ...

God, no. Apart from the fact that there were half-a-dozen other people in the room (not that that stopped some people in the middle of the night) she was sleazy as. But not in a good way. I was up that ladder and in to my own bunk faster than you could say "Man-eater".

[Deleted User 728]

I stayed in a shared dormitory in a hostel in Bruges one night in the 80s. The bloke from reception showed me into this big room full of bunk beds, pointed to a top bunk and said "That one's free, mate". I walked over to it slung my bag on the bed and then noticed a young woman in the bunk beneath looking at me. She was practically licking her lips as she said "You can get undressed in front of me if you like. I won't mind."

What happens in Bruges ...

God, no. Apart from the fact that there were half-a-dozen other people in the room (not that that stopped some people in the middle of the night) she was sleazy as. But not in a good way. I was up that ladder and in to my own bunk faster than you could say "Man-eater".

Yeah, I've never been a fan of women like that.
.. or men, come to that.
I just think you should have a bit more class about these things rather than constantly sharpening the pen knife in readiness of another notch on the bedpost.

[Deleted User 2747]

I would add that when all else fails, then I think a 'community task force' would be a good alternative to the armed forces. There is so much work to be done everywhere.

Frankie, I agree with you on this.
When I was talking about national service I didn't necessarily mean purely military skills. I meant a military-style foundation year followed by everyone, to teach them self-discipline, respect for authority, people around them and the world itself, but with regard to suggesting they take military careers that was only if it suited them having been offered a range of options that they could pursue.
It's a bit like an art student knowing they're creative but not being sure what to specialise in, or a more bookish sort taking General Studies A-Level before specialising at university.
Forestry, urban blight, coastal, rural, agricultural, the elderly, special needs, transport, science, the traditional trades, artisan crafts .. there are so many areas that could be on offer. As with an apprenticeship it works both ways : the student learns something that they could pursue as a living while the organisation - local, national, private, public, charity or whoever - gets some cheap labour in the short term and real talent in the long.

The real question is, have we gone too far away from this kind of mindset ?
I know there's a summer activities package that youths can do that aims to create similar opportunities but it was always organised in a naff way, making it look a bit goody-two shoes.
I think this would need a harder-edged campaign (like the ones they use for the military, ironically) and also some thinking outside the box when it comes to making people sign up. It would probably need a minimum-plus-wage (like an apprenticeship) for anyone signing up, while those who refuse receive a lower amount. The way you could avoid it would be to take up a proper apprenticeship or get sponsored by a company to enter their private training program (like tech or city companies do) or to get into uni, but only on certain courses : those where there's a short-fall of talent in the country's workforce, not media studies.

I want to say again that I am closer to being a communist than a capitalist, but on some issues we need to be proactive and not just sit on our arses ignoring people's problems.

I'm sure social issues would be reduced under such a program as fewer people feel worthless, turning to drink and drugs and anti-social behaviour to get their kicks.
Let's tackle the root-cause of all that's wrong in our society rather than just pointing at the young and the under-skilled and saying "On yer bike !" like some have done in the past ..

I agree with what you say. I do think we have been moved away from appreciating the basics and the world around us. Technology and the fast pace of modern capitalism and materialism has anaesthetised so many from so many things. Our society has become so narrow. Saying that I know from my experience as a teacher that it does not take much for young people to become involved in new things and more traditional skills, given the opportunity.

All young people should be given real opportunity to discover their own skills and sense of self, which so often doesn't happen happen in the educations system or in the workplace.