Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

[mapperleywhite]

Good 'compare and contrast' on the BBC website today in the context of the 1975 referendum

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36367246

Many of the same issues, some correct predictions (which I'll come back to) but our economy was a complete basket-case in total contrast to today. The major European countries standing united against cold war Russia ultimately brought freedom for many people from 1989 onwards. I think that this is one of the strongest arguments for staying in - Putin would want the UK to leave the EU and weaken it.

We've never trusted politicians who quote numbers, and the recent debates have highlighted more than ever how they use them to support their position, rather than an objective view of the reality.

But we need facts. I don't know if German etc cars will be subject to an import tariff if we Brexit, or if our many niche companies - many formed with EU aid - will now have a tariff going the other way. This seems totally daft and inefficient.

As for immigration it's a tough one. Mrs MW is a non-EU citizen, whom I likely wouldn't be able to import under the current regime, but could do 9 years ago, so perhaps I'm open to some cries of hypocrisy. But it's instructive to view this topic through her eyes. At the end of the day the UK is a highly attractive destination for immigrants....you get to work in one of the strongest world economies, you learn one of the top three world languages and there are employment opportunities irrespective of ones age. I'm no historian, but the UK has always been a magnet for immigrants, in or out of the EU.

Picking up the trade thread again, there are people who think we can strike amazing trade deals with, for example, India. Erm no. Our trade with India is already saturated, and they're hardly likely to be enthusiastic after we turned our backs on the Commonwealth in 1975. And as for amazing exchanges with non-EU giants like Albania and Belarus - what are you on??

I object wholeheartedly to politicians clambering onto one side of the debate to further their own short term ambitions at the expense of the countries' long term future. BJ - people aren't stupid, and this type of thinking must be cast aside if people are to have confidence in the political process.

The sovereignty issue has some validity - actually a prediction that was correct in 1975. For me it's fine margins, a necessary trade-off for the benefits of EU membership, that only engage the political class in that London. After all they're the ones who recently thought reducing the duty on beer by one pence a pint was meaningful.

[johnh]

Better than no voting system at all. Do you know who the British representative is on the European Commission? No I didn't either 'till I checked. Some guy from the House of Lords, never been elected to anything as far as I can see. Just like Baroness Ashton, never been elected to anything in her life. I'd rather have first past the post. Its not the system that's wrong, it's the apathy of the electorate.

[Deleted User 2747]

Better than no voting system at all. Do you know who the British representative is on the European Commission? No I didn't either 'till I checked. Some guy from the House of Lords, never been elected to anything as far as I can see. Just like Baroness Ashton, never been elected to anything in her life. I'd rather have first past the post. Its not the system that's wrong, it's the apathy of the electorate.

I think that the apathy of many voters is directly related to the fact that the majorty of voters are never represented in our FPTP system. Many democratic countries opt for a system that provides a government with a majority vote. Most people feel disenfranchised by our voting system. We currently have a government that 75% of the voting population did not vote for - there is no way on Earth that that is right!

[johnh]

Better than no voting system at all. Do you know who the British representative is on the European Commission? No I didn't either 'till I checked. Some guy from the House of Lords, never been elected to anything as far as I can see. Just like Baroness Ashton, never been elected to anything in her life. I'd rather have first past the post. Its not the system that's wrong, it's the apathy of the electorate.

I think that the apathy of many voters is directly related to the fact that the majorty of voters are never represented in our FPTP system. Many democratic countries opt for a system that provides a government with a majority vote. Most people feel disenfranchised by our voting system. We currently have a government that 75% of the voting population did not vote for - there is no way on Earth that that is right!

There is no excuse for people not voting. The % you quote would have applied whichever party won the election. Proportional representation may give a different result but wouldn't attract more voters. Hung Parliaments and Coalitions would be the most likely outcome.

[johnh]

According to the Telegraph Editorial today, Stephen Kinnock the Labour MP for Aberavon, yesterday said that since there was a pro-Remain majority in the Commons, this would be used to ensure the UK remained inside the EU single market, even if the country voted for Brexit.
Two points here: First, the Remains certainly understand EU 'democracy'. Second: Talk about vested interests. Kinnocks parents became multi-millionaires courtesy of the EU.

[Deleted User 2747]

There is no excuse for people not voting.

I agree that everyone should vote; but I fully understand that people don't and many because their vote doesn't count. There is a very strong undercurrent in the UK that it makes no difference what you vote and that is due to having a voting system that is directly opposed to democracy in a multi-party system and the establishment likes it that way- There is no excuse for perpetuating the use of a highly unfair and un-representative voting system!

The % you quote would have applied whichever party won the election.

Which is precisely my point - to acknowledge that historically, throughout the majority of our elections - the governments of the day have been elected by on average around only one third of the population is really nothing to be accepting about!

Proportional representation may give a different result but wouldn't attract more voters.

I beg to differ here, I don't think that you can underestimate the detremental effect that our voting system has on our voting mentality!

Hung Parliaments and Coalitions would be the most likely outcome.

And why is that an issue? True democracy should be the aim of any government. Eventually things get sorted and balanced out in a democratic fashion. If you extend your train of thought, you might as well say let's just go for a fascist dictatorship! Very efficient and no-one to argue or disagree with it!

[Sniffer]

I pretty much agree with everything you say there, Frankie, but especially this bit:

Hung Parliaments and Coalitions would be the most likely outcome.

And why is that an issue? True democracy should be the aim of any government. Eventually things get sorted and balanced out in a democratic fashion. If you extend your train of thought, you might as well say let's just go for a fascist dictatorship! Very efficient and no-one to argue or disagree with it!

Consensual politics where people of different parties get together to work through a problem has got to be better than adversarial, two-swords-length-apart politics that we have at the moment. Adult politics rather than the Yah-Boo politics of the playground.

[Deleted User 2747]

I pretty much agree with everything you say there, Frankie, but especially this bit:

Hung Parliaments and Coalitions would be the most likely outcome.

And why is that an issue? True democracy should be the aim of any government. Eventually things get sorted and balanced out in a democratic fashion. If you extend your train of thought, you might as well say let's just go for a fascist dictatorship! Very efficient and no-one to argue or disagree with it!

Consensual politics where people of different parties get together to work through a problem has got to be better than adversarial, two-swords-length-apart politics that we have at the moment. Adult politics rather than the Yah-Boo politics of the playground.

Very eloquently put!

[johnh]

Life by compromise, what a nightmare.

[Mellor]

At the time when leadership is paramount, war, don't we move to coalition?

There's no doubt in my mind that Tory/LibDem was better (less damaging) than the current Tory minority Govt.

Generally speaking win win is better than win lose. Labour will also need to pair up with the SNP I expect to regain power.

We need to lower the voting age and we need to move to a system where every vote counts. We must bring (I think Corbyn sees this) working class 'youth' back into the system.

I note the Govt computer failed last night so potential voters couldn't register. Another system introduced to make voting harder not easier.