Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

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Simple question should we stay in the EU or opt out ?

Poll ended at 26 Mar 2016, 18:48

IN
6
50%
OUT
6
50%
 
Total votes : 12

Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby Davycc » 05 Jun 2016, 19:42

Total of 12 votes so far, I can see it being as close in real life
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Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby Frankie » 05 Jun 2016, 20:29

Mellor wrote:When you look at the muck IDS, Gove, Boris have inflicted on us you wonder why the POTUS needed to say anything tbh. Gove broke education. IDS broke the poorest in our society. Boris just acted like a Bafoon and some people bought into his bafoonery as 'strategy' approach. Thankfully POTUS said what needed to be said and why wouldn't he? Special relationship.


Exactly! - Hardly a strong or favourable endorsement for Brexit, with those seriously dubious characters supporting it! If I ever have a doubt, I only have to look at those that support Brexit to realise that Remain is really the only sensible option now! Can't stand the 'Little Englander' mentality - which is really not the same as being patriotic!
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Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby Mellor » 05 Jun 2016, 21:56

Frankie wrote:
Mellor wrote:When you look at the muck IDS, Gove, Boris have inflicted on us you wonder why the POTUS needed to say anything tbh. Gove broke education. IDS broke the poorest in our society. Boris just acted like a Bafoon and some people bought into his bafoonery as 'strategy' approach. Thankfully POTUS said what needed to be said and why wouldn't he? Special relationship.


Exactly! - Hardly a strong or favourable endorsement for Brexit, with those seriously dubious characters supporting it! If I ever have a doubt, I only have to look at those that support Brexit to realise that Remain is really the only sensible option now! Can't stand the 'Little Englander' mentality - which is really not the same as being patriotic!


To hear Gove (and Boris) saying you can't trust the Govt (isn't Gove a member of the Govt you can't trust) just about sums it up.

Sadly the vote will not be won and lost on facts/intellectual argument which is worrying for 'remain' who have the best 'factual' case I think.

Looking at the demographics of BREXIT voters in today's Observer you see 4 key 'out' groups. The first are UKIP voters. Farage brought us to this referendum (along with Tory fear of losing votes) and his supporters won't change their minds now.

The second group are over 60s who want a return to the halcyon days of an England that probably never existed - I certainly don't remember it, rose coloured glasses essentially.

The third group are the disenfranchised, the folk at the bottom of the pile. Successive govts have neglected them in some ways but the current Govt has piled on the agony in spades in pursuit of their 'austerity' ideology. It's therefore a bad time for a referendum I think cos the 'poor' have increased in number and their problems have increased in severity and it's now too late to win these folk round. If they vote they will likely roll the dice cos they have, quite frankly, nothing to lose - interesting that BREXIT use the same slogan as LFU (We want our club/country back). Both are dice rollers.

The fourth group live in the east of England (and elsewhere but the east is the epicentre) where immigration from the east of Europe has changed their world almost overnight. Again Govt has neglected these folk in Lincs/Norfolk etc. It's really no good telling folk who've seen their world knocked from under their feet that immigration is good. Again Govt has failed to engage with these people who have very real concerns.

I'm for 'remain', partly cos I'm no great risk taker but mostly cos I think it offers the best options for my children. In or out won't effect me particularly I expect. I'm an over 60 who doesn't think I've any right to take us back to my glory days, the future is collaborative and multi cultural. I don't want the Union to break and it will for sure if we BREXIT, I don't want to jeopardise peace (sitting around the same table with old enemies is vital for me), I don't want to lose inward investment - we have Japenese car plants here for instance because it makes access to Europe easy not because we're more productive than our Europran partners. There's tons of stuff like this. Against that there's this self governing democracy rhetoric. 27% of the vote gives you power here. The country is run by a small elite from a boys club - public school in the main, Bullingdon for the top boys. Worse, Murdoch pulls everyone's strings. None of this will change if we BREXIT. Things will actually deteriorate cos BREXIT have said they want to scrap the workers rights stuff etc.

The idea that a group of inept politicians will suddenly become great leaders if we BREXIT is laughable. The idea that Europe is responsible for all the bad stuff is equally laughable - every single privatisation has come back to haunt us. PFi the same. The NHS is being run down and privatised. Govts no longer build houses for folk to live in at affordable rents. All of these and much much more have been done to us by our own elected Govt. Unfettered I fear they will be worse.

I understand why folk want out but I pray the young (the most important folk for me) will save us along with the Labour Party which really needs to get its act together and its voters out on polling day. The current Govt (in a direct line from Thatcher who killed society without any help from Europe) has convinced the electorate that public services are the enemy. Public services define what's good about a country. Out of Europe in the hands of the likes of Gove and Boris you have to fear for the health and well being of citizens.

And no we're really not like Switzerland, tiny and a very different economy to ours or Norway, I think 60 odd % of their exports are energy related. more meaningless BREXIT rhetoric.
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Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby White Knight » 05 Jun 2016, 22:36

Mellor wrote:
To hear Gove (and Boris) saying you can't trust the Govt (isn't Gove a member of the Govt you can't trust) just about sums it up.

Sadly the vote will not be won and lost on facts/intellectual argument which is worrying for 'remain' who have the best 'factual' case I think.

Looking at the demographics of BREXIT voters in today's Observer you see 4 key 'out' groups. The first are UKIP voters. Farage brought us to this referendum (along with Tory fear of losing votes) and his supporters won't change their minds now.

The second group are over 60s who want a return to the halcyon days of an England that probably never existed - I certainly don't remember it, rose coloured glasses essentially.

The third group are the disenfranchised, the folk at the bottom of the pile. Successive govts have neglected them in some ways but the current Govt has piled on the agony in spades in pursuit of their 'austerity' ideology. It's therefore a bad time for a referendum I think cos the 'poor' have increased in number and their problems have increased in severity and it's now too late to win these folk round. If they vote they will likely roll the dice cos they have, quite frankly, nothing to lose - interesting that BREXIT use the same slogan as LFU (We want our club/country back). Both are dice rollers.

The fourth group live in the east of England (and elsewhere but the east is the epicentre) where immigration from the east of Europe has changed their world almost overnight. Again Govt has neglected these folk in Lincs/Norfolk etc. It's really no good telling folk who've seen their world knocked from under their feet that immigration is good. Again Govt has failed to engage with these people who have very real concerns.

I'm for 'remain', partly cos I'm no great risk taker but mostly cos I think it offers the best options for my children. In or out won't effect me particularly I expect. I'm an over 60 who doesn't think I've any right to take us back to my glory days, the future is collaborative and multi cultural. I don't want the Union to break and it will for sure if we BREXIT, I don't want to jeopardise peace (sitting around the same table with old enemies is vital for me), I don't want to lose inward investment - we have Japenese car plants here for instance because it makes access to Europe easy not because we're more productive than our Europran partners. There's tons of stuff like this. Against that there's this self governing democracy rhetoric. 27% of the vote gives you power here. The country is run by a small elite from a boys club - public school in the main, Bullingdon for the top boys. Worse, Murdoch pulls everyone's strings. None of this will change if we BREXIT. Things will actually deteriorate cos BREXIT have said they want to scrap the workers rights stuff etc.

The idea that a group of inept politicians will suddenly become great leaders if we BREXIT is laughable. The idea that Europe is responsible for all the bad stuff is equally laughable - every single privatisation has come back to haunt us. PFi the same. The NHS is being run down and privatised. Govts no longer build houses for folk to live in at affordable rents. All of these and much much more have been done to us by our own elected Govt. Unfettered I fear they will be worse.

I understand why folk want out but I pray the young (the most important folk for me) will save us along with the Labour Party which really needs to get its act together and its voters out on polling day. The current Govt (in a direct line from Thatcher who killed society without any help from Europe) has convinced the electorate that public services are the enemy. Public services define what's good about a country. Out of Europe in the hands of the likes of Gove and Boris you have to fear for the health and well being of citizens.

And no we're really not like Switzerland, tiny and a very different economy to ours or Norway, I think 60 odd % of their exports are energy related. more meaningless BREXIT rhetoric.


That is a super summary Mellor, well done. :clap:

The issues you've highlighted are not just British issues, they are common across most liberal democracies in the West and are a real threat to same. Too many citizens have been abandoned educationally, financially and disenfranchised from the society ideals. It's contributed to the radicalisation of Muslim youths throughout Europe and has swelled the Trump support in America. The centre isn't holding as it has for decades and that's the time for the right in particular to raise it's ugly head. Worrying times.
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Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby rigger » 06 Jun 2016, 07:58

Agreed.

The whole world is f**ked.
The best we can hope for is a few sensible leaders with good hearts and the purest of motives, like Obama who I admire immensely.
Rarely do we have such a statesman in this day and age.
Too bad his hands have been tied behind his back by big business and bureaucracy.

Norway is a really interesting country.
On the one hand, they have ridiculous prices and a high suicide rate.
On the other, they're always #1 in any of those "Happiest/Best Country" ratings, are just about the greenest country on the planet and seem to be both respected and liked all over the world.
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Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby johnh » 06 Jun 2016, 08:58

Frankie mentions the 'seriously dubious characters' backing Brexit. Has she ever taken time to look at the even more seriously dubious characters who reside in Brussels? :D
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Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby Sniffer » 06 Jun 2016, 09:51

johnh wrote:Frankie mentions the 'seriously dubious characters' backing Brexit. Has she ever taken time to look at the even more seriously dubious characters who reside in Brussels? :D


Farage you mean? Yeah, pretty dubious.
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Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby johnh » 06 Jun 2016, 11:04

Sniffer wrote:
johnh wrote:Frankie mentions the 'seriously dubious characters' backing Brexit. Has she ever taken time to look at the even more seriously dubious characters who reside in Brussels? :D


Farage you mean? Yeah, pretty dubious.


I was thinking of the unelected Juncker and his cronies.
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Re: Brexit - Yes or No?

Postby Another Northern Soul » 06 Jun 2016, 11:14

rigger wrote:I'm pro-Europe all the way.

I would stay in but would also prefer to get back some autonomy.


And that sums it all pretty well for me too but I am definitely feeling that change is needed and whilst our Exit might seem too radical, I suspect that if we remain in then we will continue to not see enough if any positive change.

Bored to tears at hearing both sides making statements on what will happen if we stay or go, when it is absolute fact that they are making only predictions, no one KNOWS yet they all seem to claim they do. There's scummy prats arguing for both sides, that's the most disconcerting part of it for me :lol:

I'll be honest too, I'm resigned to the fact that I will never be rich (financially) and that whatever the result here, my personal circumstances will barely if at all change for better or worse. Away from the financial arguments, I believe that it's Immigration etc which is the main concern of most people. I don't trust any of the vociferous ones in the public eye on either side, I trust my mates' opinions and those interested in this debate all have relevant points to support their argument.

I'm all for change at the moment and so am leaning towards voting out.
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Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby rigger » 06 Jun 2016, 11:23

Yeah, I stand by those two sentences.

If push came to shove and nothing changed in terms of our (already fairly substantial) influence in the EU then I would still vote to stay in, but in an ideal world I would like even more of an influence.

I read the other day - so it's probably complete garbage - that the only net contributors in the EU are the UK and Germany.
If that's true, then we should wield more power, almost to the point of being in charge with Germany.

If you think of it like a football club, the majority shareholders - be they sole or in a group - run the thing because they put the most money in. Same with any business, company or organisation, so why isn't it like that in politics too ?
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