Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added
Posted: 05 Jun 2016, 19:42
Total of 12 votes so far, I can see it being as close in real life
Exactly! - Hardly a strong or favourable endorsement for Brexit, with those seriously dubious characters supporting it! If I ever have a doubt, I only have to look at those that support Brexit to realise that Remain is really the only sensible option now! Can't stand the 'Little Englander' mentality - which is really not the same as being patriotic!Mellor wrote:When you look at the muck IDS, Gove, Boris have inflicted on us you wonder why the POTUS needed to say anything tbh. Gove broke education. IDS broke the poorest in our society. Boris just acted like a Bafoon and some people bought into his bafoonery as 'strategy' approach. Thankfully POTUS said what needed to be said and why wouldn't he? Special relationship.
To hear Gove (and Boris) saying you can't trust the Govt (isn't Gove a member of the Govt you can't trust) just about sums it up.Frankie wrote:Exactly! - Hardly a strong or favourable endorsement for Brexit, with those seriously dubious characters supporting it! If I ever have a doubt, I only have to look at those that support Brexit to realise that Remain is really the only sensible option now! Can't stand the 'Little Englander' mentality - which is really not the same as being patriotic!Mellor wrote:When you look at the muck IDS, Gove, Boris have inflicted on us you wonder why the POTUS needed to say anything tbh. Gove broke education. IDS broke the poorest in our society. Boris just acted like a Bafoon and some people bought into his bafoonery as 'strategy' approach. Thankfully POTUS said what needed to be said and why wouldn't he? Special relationship.
That is a super summary Mellor, well done.Mellor wrote:
To hear Gove (and Boris) saying you can't trust the Govt (isn't Gove a member of the Govt you can't trust) just about sums it up.
Sadly the vote will not be won and lost on facts/intellectual argument which is worrying for 'remain' who have the best 'factual' case I think.
Looking at the demographics of BREXIT voters in today's Observer you see 4 key 'out' groups. The first are UKIP voters. Farage brought us to this referendum (along with Tory fear of losing votes) and his supporters won't change their minds now.
The second group are over 60s who want a return to the halcyon days of an England that probably never existed - I certainly don't remember it, rose coloured glasses essentially.
The third group are the disenfranchised, the folk at the bottom of the pile. Successive govts have neglected them in some ways but the current Govt has piled on the agony in spades in pursuit of their 'austerity' ideology. It's therefore a bad time for a referendum I think cos the 'poor' have increased in number and their problems have increased in severity and it's now too late to win these folk round. If they vote they will likely roll the dice cos they have, quite frankly, nothing to lose - interesting that BREXIT use the same slogan as LFU (We want our club/country back). Both are dice rollers.
The fourth group live in the east of England (and elsewhere but the east is the epicentre) where immigration from the east of Europe has changed their world almost overnight. Again Govt has neglected these folk in Lincs/Norfolk etc. It's really no good telling folk who've seen their world knocked from under their feet that immigration is good. Again Govt has failed to engage with these people who have very real concerns.
I'm for 'remain', partly cos I'm no great risk taker but mostly cos I think it offers the best options for my children. In or out won't effect me particularly I expect. I'm an over 60 who doesn't think I've any right to take us back to my glory days, the future is collaborative and multi cultural. I don't want the Union to break and it will for sure if we BREXIT, I don't want to jeopardise peace (sitting around the same table with old enemies is vital for me), I don't want to lose inward investment - we have Japenese car plants here for instance because it makes access to Europe easy not because we're more productive than our Europran partners. There's tons of stuff like this. Against that there's this self governing democracy rhetoric. 27% of the vote gives you power here. The country is run by a small elite from a boys club - public school in the main, Bullingdon for the top boys. Worse, Murdoch pulls everyone's strings. None of this will change if we BREXIT. Things will actually deteriorate cos BREXIT have said they want to scrap the workers rights stuff etc.
The idea that a group of inept politicians will suddenly become great leaders if we BREXIT is laughable. The idea that Europe is responsible for all the bad stuff is equally laughable - every single privatisation has come back to haunt us. PFi the same. The NHS is being run down and privatised. Govts no longer build houses for folk to live in at affordable rents. All of these and much much more have been done to us by our own elected Govt. Unfettered I fear they will be worse.
I understand why folk want out but I pray the young (the most important folk for me) will save us along with the Labour Party which really needs to get its act together and its voters out on polling day. The current Govt (in a direct line from Thatcher who killed society without any help from Europe) has convinced the electorate that public services are the enemy. Public services define what's good about a country. Out of Europe in the hands of the likes of Gove and Boris you have to fear for the health and well being of citizens.
And no we're really not like Switzerland, tiny and a very different economy to ours or Norway, I think 60 odd % of their exports are energy related. more meaningless BREXIT rhetoric.
Farage you mean? Yeah, pretty dubious.johnh wrote:Frankie mentions the 'seriously dubious characters' backing Brexit. Has she ever taken time to look at the even more seriously dubious characters who reside in Brussels?
I was thinking of the unelected Juncker and his cronies.Sniffer wrote:Farage you mean? Yeah, pretty dubious.johnh wrote:Frankie mentions the 'seriously dubious characters' backing Brexit. Has she ever taken time to look at the even more seriously dubious characters who reside in Brussels?
And that sums it all pretty well for me too but I am definitely feeling that change is needed and whilst our Exit might seem too radical, I suspect that if we remain in then we will continue to not see enough if any positive change.rigger wrote:I'm pro-Europe all the way.
I would stay in but would also prefer to get back some autonomy.