Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

The place to discuss anything that isn't football or LUFC

Simple question should we stay in the EU or opt out ?

Poll ended at 26 Mar 2016, 18:48

IN
6
50%
OUT
6
50%
 
Total votes : 12

Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby Tourist » 06 Jun 2016, 12:09

First of all, kudos to Mellor for such an in-depth analysis.

Secondly, I have been to the UK a couple of times but if there are people here who think that I’m not eligible to constructively comment on BREXIT as not being a Brit - I absolutely respect their approach. I wouldn’t like a bloody foreigner to comment on my country’s affairs either! :)

Thirdly, sorry for a post longer than I first expected. :)

My opinion as an Eastern European on this matter is clear - the UK must remain in the EU. I suspect that in the West it may not be as appreciated as it should but Europe has the longest stint of peace in her history. And the main reason behind it is that there is no old-fashioned military and economic competition between European nations. We are, in a way, working for our European welfare together. In other words – it’s highly unprofitable to make war with a business partner. And let it stay like this as long as possible, because when we return to the old ways who knows what can happen in the future. Maybe one day somebody again will claim that one race or ideology is better than all the others? I know it sounds far-fetched but we have experienced that in Poland, twice, and we definitely don’t take freedom or peace for granted.

I am also fully aware what you may think - that I'm only concerned for the job market for me and my compatriots when it comes to BREXIT. Well, I'm not, because I firmly believe that if there was no economic reason behind opening the job market for Eastern Europeans, they wouldn't have been allowed to work in the UK. And I am absolutely confident that when EE immigrants are no longer profitable to the general economy of the UK, therefore no longer being hired, they will be gone. They are here for money only; they’ve got places where they can return to if the money’s gone. The problem lies elsewhere IMHO. There is a constant stream of illegal immigrants coming to the UK which doesn’t seem to dry up and has nothing to do with the EU. They can’t/don’t want to go back to where they came from as residing in the UK is a benefit per se for them. These people never integrate with the society, they never form any relationship with the country they are in, they don’t contribute to communities (them falling apart is one of the biggest problem in the UK, that’s what I’ve heard from my English friends) and they don’t pay taxes doing undeclared work. Moreover, as unwanted, they remain in a natural, psychological opposition to the party which “unwants” them - the state, which “helps” with their alienation, radicalization, etc. which leads to ghettos, terrorism and so on and so forth. Catch 22. Why are the illegals allowed in I was wondering not so long ago?

The answer came unexpectedly when I watched an episode of Traffic Cops on youtube. Without going into too many details, the police caught guys on a motorway, took them to the police station, ensured that they’re all right and… let them go, informing them that they should report to Immigration on a certain day. Surprisingly, they didn’t. I’ve recently heard that the UK is going to introduce a border control Australia style. I say – finally. You need to have full control over people you let into your country as guests, UK or not. (Did I sound Trump? :)) When you get the immigration factor sorted and focus turns to the main reason behind the Union: profitability, it may become clear that the EU needs the UK and vice versa. I simply can’t imagine that the UK is losing out on being a member of the EU.

PS
Not to mention the fact that Europe needs English folk. Who else would marry all those Eastern European women? I know four chaps who are happily married like that, one is an obsessed LUFC supporter :)
MOT, over and out! :)
Tourist
Paul Heckingbottom's career advisor
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 22 Sep 2014, 07:28

Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby dlw10 » 06 Jun 2016, 12:12

Bookies still have staying in at 1/6 - they believe therefore there is an 80% probablitity the voters will vote to stay in!
User avatar
dlw10
Howard Wilkinson's military attaché
 
Posts: 4370
Joined: 13 Sep 2011, 23:56
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby johnh » 06 Jun 2016, 12:37

I agree that Mellor's post was well thought out and raised some good points. However, he did his case no favours by turning the post into a party political broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party. The referendum has nothing to do with party politics, the vote is solely on whether we want to stay in or leave the EU.

PS PFI was solely the brainchild of Gordon Brown, Labour Chancellor.
I once played against Don Revie.
User avatar
johnh
Don Revie's bingo caller
 
Posts: 7297
Joined: 24 Jan 2012, 15:26

Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby rigger » 06 Jun 2016, 12:41

Tourist wrote:First of all, kudos to Mellor for such an in-depth analysis.

Secondly, I have been to the UK a couple of times but if there are people here who think that I’m not eligible to constructively comment on BREXIT as not being a Brit - I absolutely respect their approach. I wouldn’t like a bloody foreigner to comment on my country’s affairs either! :)

Thirdly, sorry for a post longer than I first expected. :)

My opinion as an Eastern European on this matter is clear - the UK must remain in the EU. I suspect that in the West it may not be as appreciated as it should but Europe has the longest stint of peace in her history. And the main reason behind it is that there is no old-fashioned military and economic competition between European nations. We are, in a way, working for our European welfare together. In other words – it’s highly unprofitable to make war with a business partner. And let it stay like this as long as possible, because when we return to the old ways who knows what can happen in the future. Maybe one day somebody again will claim that one race or ideology is better than all the others? I know it sounds far-fetched but we have experienced that in Poland, twice, and we definitely don’t take freedom or peace for granted.

I am also fully aware what you may think - that I'm only concerned for the job market for me and my compatriots when it comes to BREXIT. Well, I'm not, because I firmly believe that if there was no economic reason behind opening the job market for Eastern Europeans, they wouldn't have been allowed to work in the UK. And I am absolutely confident that when EE immigrants are no longer profitable to the general economy of the UK, therefore no longer being hired, they will be gone. They are here for money only; they’ve got places where they can return to if the money’s gone. The problem lies elsewhere IMHO. There is a constant stream of illegal immigrants coming to the UK which doesn’t seem to dry up and has nothing to do with the EU. They can’t/don’t want to go back to where they came from as residing in the UK is a benefit per se for them. These people never integrate with the society, they never form any relationship with the country they are in, they don’t contribute to communities (them falling apart is one of the biggest problem in the UK, that’s what I’ve heard from my English friends) and they don’t pay taxes doing undeclared work. Moreover, as unwanted, they remain in a natural, psychological opposition to the party which “unwants” them - the state, which “helps” with their alienation, radicalization, etc. which leads to ghettos, terrorism and so on and so forth. Catch 22. Why are the illegals allowed in I was wondering not so long ago?

The answer came unexpectedly when I watched an episode of Traffic Cops on youtube. Without going into too many details, the police caught guys on a motorway, took them to the police station, ensured that they’re all right and… let them go, informing them that they should report to Immigration on a certain day. Surprisingly, they didn’t. I’ve recently heard that the UK is going to introduce a border control Australia style. I say – finally. You need to have full control over people you let into your country as guests, UK or not. (Did I sound Trump? :)) When you get the immigration factor sorted and focus turns to the main reason behind the Union: profitability, it may become clear that the EU needs the UK and vice versa. I simply can’t imagine that the UK is losing out on being a member of the EU.

PS
Not to mention the fact that Europe needs English folk. Who else would marry all those Eastern European women? I know four chaps who are happily married like that, one is an obsessed LUFC supporter :)
MOT, over and out! :)



Jenki ! :mrgreen:

That's a great post and it's interesting to hear it from your perspective.

The war/peace thing is incredibly low on the agenda for most people in all this and yet it's what we went to war for in the first place.
For a nation SO obsessed with the second world war, Britain is remarkably xenophobic. It makes me wonder why we didn't just say to Hitler "You can have mainland Europe so long as you leave us alone" in the first place.

Today is D-Day.

But there's another one coming up ..
User avatar
rigger
LUFCTALK Admin
 
Posts: 14468
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 17:35

Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby johnh » 06 Jun 2016, 12:56

Rigger, in 1939 there were a lot of people who were of the opinion 'let Hitler have Europe and leave us alone'. Fortunately, Churchill was there and that is why we don't speak German today. Germany still run Europe however but the only reason we don't speak German is that the French want 'French' to be the official language of the EU. This is probably the most likely cause of another war in Europe. :D
I once played against Don Revie.
User avatar
johnh
Don Revie's bingo caller
 
Posts: 7297
Joined: 24 Jan 2012, 15:26

Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby rigger » 06 Jun 2016, 13:04

johnh wrote:Rigger, in 1939 there were a lot of people who were of the opinion 'let Hitler have Europe and leave us alone'. Fortunately, Churchill was there and that is why we don't speak German today. Germany still run Europe however but the only reason we don't speak German is that the French want 'French' to be the official language of the EU. This is probably the most likely cause of another war in Europe. :D



I speak German .. and French :D
User avatar
rigger
LUFCTALK Admin
 
Posts: 14468
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 17:35

Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby Tourist » 06 Jun 2016, 13:54

Rigger, as much as I respect your comments because they are always top level, I could go for hours why I think England is not xenophobic. Nowhere else I’ve met so many open-minded people. But, as for your observation regarding 1939 and as a kind of my personal justification for British "isolationist" approach I will just quote this after Churchill: “Britain does not have friends only interests.” This is the way you are and you should stick to it, there’s nothing wrong with that :)
The problem stems from here IMHO - the British people are entrapped between two extremes, post-empire paradigm with all its consequences and political correctness, with the latter being a form of redemption for the former. That’s why there’s this mess with immigrants, radicals and benefit leeches (UK citizens are included here, unfortunately). Draw a clear line and problem is sorted. Get rid of those who take advantage of you, leave those who contribute to the economy, drop political correctness.

But stay in the EU, please :)

And somebody may have thought this is a football forum… :)
Tourist
Paul Heckingbottom's career advisor
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 22 Sep 2014, 07:28

Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby Tourist » 06 Jun 2016, 14:01

johnh wrote:Rigger, in 1939 there were a lot of people who were of the opinion 'let Hitler have Europe and leave us alone'. Fortunately, Churchill was there and that is why we don't speak German today. Germany still run Europe however but the only reason we don't speak German is that the French want 'French' to be the official language of the EU. This is probably the most likely cause of another war in Europe. :D


That is very true. I don't want to mess in this thread too much I will only recommend "Europe" by Norman Davies. Professor at University of London, speaks Polish fluently.
Tourist
Paul Heckingbottom's career advisor
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 22 Sep 2014, 07:28

Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby rigger » 06 Jun 2016, 14:04

Tourist, I do agree that we're actually very tolerant as a nation and that can be interpreted as being non-xenophobic, but the whole thing works on two levels for me.
While people like myself who openly talk to foreigners of any flavour (I can't help it, I hear an accent and I'm off) and are curious about the world will engage with you and give you that impression, the silent ones who don't talk to you unless they have to are the xenophobes.

I am lucky enough to have been brought up in an open family. My mother's parents were French and I never, ever had the impression either of my parents were "anti" anything. My dad was disabled as a child so that was another thing to knock off the list of potentials and also showed what kind of person my mum was. Even my step-dad (my father died when I was a kid) had worked all over the world and spoke Arabic and had no prejudice whatsoever.
Not all Brits are like that.
There are a hell of a lot of casual, timid racists who won't speak up unless they feel safe in a group of like-minded idiots.
You just don't meet them that often.
Or, rather you do but they never let on.
Not to your face ...

We're an island race and with that comes a complexity all of its own ..
User avatar
rigger
LUFCTALK Admin
 
Posts: 14468
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 17:35

Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added

Postby rigger » 06 Jun 2016, 14:07

Tourist wrote:
johnh wrote:Rigger, in 1939 there were a lot of people who were of the opinion 'let Hitler have Europe and leave us alone'. Fortunately, Churchill was there and that is why we don't speak German today. Germany still run Europe however but the only reason we don't speak German is that the French want 'French' to be the official language of the EU. This is probably the most likely cause of another war in Europe. :D


That is very true. I don't want to mess in this thread too much I will only recommend "Europe" by Norman Davies. Professor at University of London, speaks Polish fluently.


Do you mean this book ??
Weirdly enough, I'm halfway through it ! :shock:

Image


A staggering read.
The western front was schoolyard handbags compared to the real war between Germany and the eastern European nations :(
User avatar
rigger
LUFCTALK Admin
 
Posts: 14468
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 17:35

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests