Mandela

[Davycc]

There is no country in the world where wrongs have not been done in the name of government, democracy or freedom. Those people following their beliefs whether on the side of the ruling party or the people fighting for their freedom do not deserve to loose loved ones. The word should be the weapon not the bomb. Mandela did wrong and paid for it, but the strength of character this man showed not only to forgive but to welcome into his vision those that punished him and the ability and presence to unite a nation which was so close to oblivion speaks volumes of the man. A vast number people could learn so much from his example.

[Deleted User 728]

I'm very proud to announce that my nephew, Mike, will be "doing" the sound in the Soccer City stadium for Nelson Mandela's memorial service on Tuesday !
He's still at uni but he's been working for a sound and lighting company for a few years and worked at the World Cup too.
So if the speakers blow up or you can't hear Jacob Zuma and Desmond Tutu it's his fault

[SMorientes]

Those people following their beliefs whether on the side of the ruling party or the people fighting for their freedom do not deserve to loose loved ones. The word should be the weapon not the bomb.

A very idealistic argument but I'm not sure I'm convinced by it. To fight against true oppression with just words is beyond futile. Not saying all that Mandela participated in was morally justified; I don't know the details of most of it; but I certainly don't believe fighting for freedom in a purely peaceful manner would've got him anywhere.

[Spiderman]

The words of a colleague who grew up in South Africa: "when I was a child Nelson Mandela was a horrible man, he was a terrorist, I don't know if he ever actually got his own hands bloodied but he was certainly responsible for the disappearance & murder of several people however he was an angel compared to Winnie, I will let him rest in peace but I won't mourn him"

This is another viewpoint from someone more in the know than myself.

Was he justified in his actions? I don't know.

We have a Royal Marine now serving a life sentence for murdering an Afghanistan terrorist, how many innocent lives has that RM saved through the killing of that one terrorist? We will never know, all we have is a soldier condemned by people who have no idea about what happens in war but look to our armed forces for protection & when that protection is actioned he is called a murderer.

Life has many grey areas yet most people just see black & white. No pun intended

[Davycc]

Those people following their beliefs whether on the side of the ruling party or the people fighting for their freedom do not deserve to loose loved ones. The word should be the weapon not the bomb.

A very idealistic argument but I'm not sure I'm convinced by it. To fight against true oppression with just words is beyond futile. Not saying all that Mandela participated in was morally justified; I don't know the details of most of it; but I certainly don't believe fighting for freedom in a purely peaceful manner would've got him anywhere.

Idealistic, yes of course it is. I have never been put in the position of feeling that blowing up a railway station killing women and children would help my situation, very few of us probably ever have been anywhere near that. Could I do it I would pray I couldn't.

It takes two sides in a situation like this to forgive so as to move on. Mandela rightly deserves the respect of the world for his forgiveness to those that oppressed him and his countrymen, as this no doubt showed his "enemies how to forgive in return. My opinion is of little value there are many many more powerful and knowledgeable people making their way to SA to pay their respects that says it all. A lot of them would do well to follow his lead.

BTW Gandhi didn't do too badly without a gun in his robe.

[SMorientes]

Well said. And as spiderman says, none of it is black and white and I wasn't trying to condone anything but we can be grateful we've never been forced anywhere near a situation of such desperation; but millions have died to grant us such a complacency.
But as a great local folk artist sings 'when no-one's listening only violence makes the news.' Some, after discovering the futility of words alone, have sacrificed themselves a la Emily Davison in the hope of provoking a change. This seems wrong to me, why would the oppressee be the one forced to lose their life?
As for ghandi, I have nothing but respect and admiration for his principles and actions, however he did not achieve independence for India alone, many many died fighting, laying themselves down as martyrs or with guns/bombs etc. Not on behalf of or authorised by ghandi or owt but it was all a part of the same fight, and I'd wager ghandi's words alone would've achieved far less, especially since he was locked in prison for years regardless of his pacifism.

[Deleted User 1022]

Amandla Awethu sing the people, the words of a generation enthronged in a struggle to detract a nation under a severe divide where the minority feared losing the grip of thier livlihoods yet knowing it was ineviatable, one man they sang for, Nelson Mandela, a human being with an amazing love of his people his country and the world over, he was what we all should aspire to, fear no man and believe in something bigger than just our own petty beliefs, the man was a spiritual human, he cared for black and white asian and indians of south africa. I grew up listening to South African music some tribal some reggae and some called Tukuza. Now the man is really free.

R.I.P. The knight in shining armour for a generation worldwide, Nelson Mandela

[Davycc]

Well said. And as spiderman says, none of it is black and white and I wasn't trying to condone anything but we can be grateful we've never been forced anywhere near a situation of such desperation; but millions have died to grant us such a complacency.
Some, after discovering the futility of words alone, have sacrificed themselves a la Emily Dickinson in the hope of provoking a change. But as a great local folk artist sings 'when no-one's listening only violence makes the news.' This seems wrong to me, why would the oppressee be the one forced to lose their life?
As for ghandi, I have nothing but respect and admiration for his principles and actions, however he did not achieve independence for India alone, many many died fighting, laying themselves down as martyrs or with guns/bombs etc. Not on behalf of or authorised by ghandi or owt but it was all a part of the same fight, and I'd wager ghandi's words alone would've achieved far less, especially since he was locked in prison for years regardless of his pacifism.

I agree totally, I was trying to be cleaver. People will always have different views on how to achieve a goal in any situation that's what makes us individuals. This even leads to conflict (in the verbal sense) between people wanting the same end, just look at this forum we can't agree on anything LUFC related other than The Don was a god and Barn door Billy was nearly as useless as Tomas Brolin