Leonickroberts wrote:Can see this thread running and running, and not in a particularly productive way...there are already so many stereotypes being thrown around on here.
I'm sure we're all agreed that a) racism and xenophobia have absolutely no place on the terraces or anywhere else in society; b) those guilty of it, on the pitch or off it, should be punished accordingly; and c) we should all do what we can to call it out wherever possible, even if that means challenging our fellow Leeds fans.
There is a significant difference between racism and banter, the only person who can determine which is which, is the recipient imho.
I have many black and Indian friends who are embarrassed by the level of political correctness currently expected. In terms of British ethnicity stereotypes, I can safely say I have never experienced any objections to Scottish / Irish banter within my own social circle. Paddy & Jock has always been, in my experience acceptable dressing / bar room terminology.
Unfortunately I have also witnessed appalling bigotry, which I have taken a bit of a kicking for, just because some fella was in the wrong place at the wrong time. On reflection the individuals concerned were less racists, more bullies in my view, a la football tribalism.
The most interesting thought provoking comment I heard was an Indian friend who objects to the term Asian. This BBC approved, generic term that captures 2/3rds of the worlds population. He felt the term was as acceptable as calling him a darky. He preferred that the media, which sought to protect one particular ethnic group, whilst tarring a few billion with the same brush, should be more specific in their definition. It was like a police description of a fella between 5ft & 6”6 wish dark blonde black straight bald curly hair who was a light, black brown in colour!
Racism, like with most things, is probably primarily about intention. I understand the banter or racism debate, but I think that's where intention comes in. Whether you are wanting to offend or marginalise a group, or if it's just an established joke with a friend. If you were to misguidedly say something that drew offence and apologised, it would probably be fine. What matters is whether the origins stem from prejudice and hate. Racism is intending harm or intending insult to someone you do not know, because you want them to feel racially inferior
"A man with new ideas is a madman. Until his ideas triumph."
SiMamu wrote:Racism, like with most things, is probably primarily about intention. I understand the banter or racism debate, but I think that's where intention comes in. Whether you are wanting to offend or marginalise a group, or if it's just an established joke with a friend. If you were to misguidedly say something that drew offence and apologised, it would probably be fine. What matters is whether the origins stem from prejudice and hate. Racism is intending harm or intending insult to someone you do not know, because you want them to feel racially inferior
I'm not so sure. The really scary thing about racism is sometimes it's bred into someone. Kind of institutionalised. Some folk don't even realise they're racist, they've been brought up hearing the rhetoric, the slang & the slurs & assumed it's normal. Here's where there's often a complete lack of intent. They literally know no different.
isrodger wrote:There is a significant difference between racism and banter, the only person who can determine which is which, is the recipient imho.
I have many black and Indian friends who are embarrassed by the level of political correctness currently expected. In terms of British ethnicity stereotypes, I can safely say I have never experienced any objections to Scottish / Irish banter within my own social circle. Paddy & Jock has always been, in my experience acceptable dressing / bar room terminology.
Unfortunately I have also witnessed appalling bigotry, which I have taken a bit of a kicking for, just because some fella was in the wrong place at the wrong time. On reflection the individuals concerned were less racists, more bullies in my view, a la football tribalism.
The most interesting thought provoking comment I heard was an Indian friend who objects to the term Asian. This BBC approved, generic term that captures 2/3rds of the worlds population. He felt the term was as acceptable as calling him a darky. He preferred that the media, which sought to protect one particular ethnic group, whilst tarring a few billion with the same brush, should be more specific in their definition. It was like a police description of a fella between 5ft & 6”6 wish dark blonde black straight bald curly hair who was a light, black brown in colour!
isrodger, I'm not surprised your Indian friend objects to the term Asian. He's Sioux isn't he, or is it Cherokee?
Is that racist or banter? Discuss.
MyNameIsMark wrote: Some folk don't even realise they're racist, they've been brought up hearing the rhetoric, the slang & the slurs & assumed it's normal. Here's where there's often a complete lack of intent. They literally know no different.
Yeah, for me this would not be racism. A lack of education or understanding cannot be deemed hateful or with intention to impress superiority etc.
I remember singing ''Eeny Meenie Miney Mo'' and using a completely incorrect word in place of 'Tigger' - wrong and regretful, but we knew no different. We didn't even know what the misplaced word meant, never mind use it with intent. Could not possibly be classed as racist.
"An astonishing number of people despise Leeds United or what Leeds United stand for. But this club was never made for them." - Phil Hay
Just a thought - is it equally bigoted to chant about Chelsea scum or Manchester United players/managers who visit ER? This is awful too, but I'll probably get shot down for saying it since it is expected of a Leeds fan. I think those chants a despicable (Tom Ince or Kaspar Schmeical being booed because of their Dads for example).
But we let that go don't we? Equally atrocious at a sporting event (he says putting his tin hat on).
Racism is totally unacceptable, but to me that hatred is not a million miles away.
“Even the darkest night will end and the sun will rise.”
I hardly ever post because I realise most people on this forum know more about football than I do and I don’t feel I could contribute much, but I read practically everything, and love the site. I do, however, know something about this subject so I’ll have my say.
It seems to me that the whole idea of race is quite outdated. When people talk about racism they often mix up two different things. One is ethnic group, which in my understanding means being part of a group who are socially and culturally distinct from others. That might or might not depend on national boundaries or genealogy or language. Black is not an ethnic group without any context; Asian certainly isn’t ; Irish, arguably, is. The other factor is physical appearance.
In defence of racism (not an oft-heard phrase), we can like or dislike a particular culture and what, in our perception, it stands for. That leads some people to dislike people of that ethnic group. For example, you might perceive Norwegian culture (yes, I’m choosing Norwegian as a safe option) to be very conservative, the people reticent and over-serious. As a consequence you might not feel attracted to it. By some definitions that would make you a racist. It seems to me you have every right to harbor that dislike, but it’s how you display it that is the crux; you don’t have the right to decide that a person of that ethnic group embodies the qualities you find distasteful, and you certainly don’t have the right to abuse somebody based on your perceptions of the ethnic group they belong to.
In the case of people’s physical appearance, it’s pure idiocy because it doesn’t put them in any group anyway. Race, in these terms, is a myth.
At the end of the day we all know what we are talking about which is a-holes, as Rigger put it, who aren’t intelligent enough to express their frustration in any way other than banal, facile insults. “Racists” are just inarticulate and simple-minded.
