2022 - 2023 Transfer Rumours and Squad Discussions

Leeds United news here, transfer rumours, club affairs, players, fans, etc.
Specific match discussions should go in the category below.
The Fonz
Eddie Gray's leftorium proprietor
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Re: 2022 - 2023 Transfer Rumours and Squad Discussions

Post by The Fonz »

guitarmark wrote:
corkleedsmot wrote:
whitedancer wrote:Like who Phillips and raphinha will go which isn’t rocket science: the rest won’t get into another prem team, maybe gelhardt in a season or two.
Bamford def would
Not for me he won't - At best he would get in a Bournemouth, Burnley type of team in the lower reaches - I don't see him as good enough for the likes of Villa, West Ham - I hope he stays with us and with Gelhardt and Greenwood they combine to deliver 40-50 goals in the EFL (rather we stay up and they deliver 35 goals between them in the PL)
Bamford proved he can score and create at this level despite playing as a loan striker I'm sure someone will be in for him if we go down.
superfox
Simon Grayson's Hairdresser
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Re: 2022 - 2023 Transfer Rumours and Squad Discussions

Post by superfox »

whitedancer wrote:Like who Phillips and raphinha will go which isn’t rocket science: the rest won’t get into another prem team, maybe gelhardt in a season or two.
Harrison and Meslier could easily stay in the Prem too. Also Rodrigo, Llorente and Koch could go to a La Liga/Bundesliga team.
Bamford is definitely PL-material too, just a very risky signing for anyone after a season like this.
The most important is to keep all youngsters here: Gelhardt, Summerville, Drameh, Cresswell, Hjelde, Bate and Greenwood could be all key players. Even Gray could get a few minutes here and there.
whitedancer
David O'Leary's baby-sitter
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Re: 2022 - 2023 Transfer Rumours and Squad Discussions

Post by whitedancer »

Didn’t bamford recently sign a long term contract, just before he got injured.
He could be a 2nd or 3rd choice striker for 1 of the promoted sides , but I doubt it,
Roofe was a better striker then bamford, that’s why he wad sold and bamford stayed..
LIorente plays like he’s got 2 left feet. Koch basically played out of position most of the season, but can tackle.
Firpo slow gets lost upfield and basically just looks to foul most of the time. We probably would have been better served sticking with Shackleton, hjelde, cresswell and saved a lot of money.
guitarmark
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Re: 2022 - 2023 Transfer Rumours and Squad Discussions

Post by guitarmark »

The Fonz wrote:
guitarmark wrote:
corkleedsmot wrote:
whitedancer wrote:Like who Phillips and raphinha will go which isn’t rocket science: the rest won’t get into another prem team, maybe gelhardt in a season or two.
Bamford def would
Not for me he won't - At best he would get in a Bournemouth, Burnley type of team in the lower reaches - I don't see him as good enough for the likes of Villa, West Ham - I hope he stays with us and with Gelhardt and Greenwood they combine to deliver 40-50 goals in the EFL (rather we stay up and they deliver 35 goals between them in the PL)
Bamford proved he can score and create at this level despite playing as a loan striker I'm sure someone will be in for him if we go down.
What Bielsa did with a championship based side was remarkable - He brought in a game plan, a mind set and a fitness level that few could match - It might be fair to say that when we got promoted, some players were playing above their station - But in the first year our mind set and attack minded play worked - 2nd year was it a case of the players not being good enough and/or Bielsa's plan being found out - I know we can add injuries and lack of spending - But in essence many of our EFL players would not and did not attract PL interest - In my opinion Bamford would/could not achieve in the EFL what Mitrovic has just done with Fulham - That doesn't mean I don't love all that Bielsa and the lads have done - They are our players and I buy into that - But many are not as good as we need them to be

Funnily enough, with their game plan I can see PB working out okay for Brighton/West Ham and maybe Soton - But as an overview the likes of PB,Harrison, James are border line PL and good EFL - I'm sure we'll start a next season chat soon, be it EFL or PL and who comes/goes
Polkadot
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Re: 2022 - 2023 Transfer Rumours and Squad Discussions

Post by Polkadot »

Barlow Boy wrote:
Polkadot wrote:
CheeznOnionPasty wrote:
Barlow Boy wrote:
corkleedsmot wrote:
Barlow Boy wrote:
Metro1962 wrote:Leeds stay up then Phillips will stay imo.
That’s what I thought until I saw him at the end of the Brighton game, he’s gone either way for me.
I really feel like the shift with Bielsa getting dumped made him second guess.
We will see though. I really think a lot of these players will fancy a move now.
You’re correct there mate, a few of us did say similar when the club decided it was a good idea to sack Bielsa.
This is on my mind with Kalvin, I suspect that letting Bielsa go broke Kalvin a bit inside and that his loyalty took a big hit as a result. That last home game definitely had the feel of a goodbye about it too. If Bielsa was still here I'd be 100% confident Kalvin would stay, not so much any more.
There is no realistic scenario Kalvin would play in Championship next season in my opinion. He turns 27 this year, he is fighting for a starting position in the World Cup and the best teams in the world (Liverpool and City) are interested in him.
Also if we still had Bielsa now, there is no reason to belive he would've continued in the Championship next year.
If we’d kept Bielsa we wouldn’t have been going down in the first place.

Kalvin was all set to sign a new contract prior to the decision to sack Bielsa, if that doesn’t say anything I don’t know what does.
It sure says something, but nothing that is relevant to what I commented on really.

Would Kalvin 100% stay if Bielsa was here and we survived? Yes, I dont think anyone would argue against that.

The key premise in my post is what happens IF we go down.
We go down with Marsch -> Kalvin leaves.
If we had gone down with Bielsa -> we will never know as that is not the case, my guess is that we would have played in Championship next season without Bielsa and without Kalvin anyways if we went down lead by Bielsa. The longer contract would've only increased the price on Kalvin if we got relegated, not made him stay.

Whether we would have survived with Bielsa is just a guess - no one can say for sure what would've happen.
Polkadot
Eddie Gray's leftorium proprietor
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Re: 2022 - 2023 Transfer Rumours and Squad Discussions

Post by Polkadot »

To give a verdict on Orta I’ve tried to gather every player we’ve spent money on buying since Orta came in by the end of the 16-17 season.

17/18
Forshaw :thumbup:
Saiz :thumbup:
Jansson :thumbup: :thumbup:
Roberts :thumbup:
Alioski :thumbup: :thumbup:
Klich :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
De Bock :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Sacko :thumbdown:
Cibicki :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Grot :thumbdown:
Ideguchi :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Ekuban :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Halme :think:
Wiedewald :thumbdown:

Of the first 6 everyone but Saiz must be considered clearly successful. Also Saiz was a decent signing, things just didn't work out the right way for him to be considered really a successful signing.
Below the top 6 here there are a lot of crap, but they were also pretty cheap all of them. Low risk, potentially high reward (but no reward this time)

18/19
Bamford :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Douglas :think:
Bogusz :think:
Casilla :thumbdown:

Overall decent. Bamford big success, Casilla (the big signing) not really a success looking at expectations and salaries.

19/20
No real signings, but White, Augustin and Nketiah in on loan which should be considered.
White :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Nketiah :think:
Augustin :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

White was amazing, Nketiah mediocre and Augustin a disaster.


20/21
Rodrigo :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Llorente :think:
Raphinha :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Helder Costa (was on loan before) :thumbdown:
Koch :thumbup:
Meslier (was on loan before) :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Gelhardt :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

21/22
James :thumbdown:
Firpo :thumbdown:
Harrison (was on loan before) :thumbup: :thumbup:
Klaesson :think:

During this period the following players came also for free or for almost nothing via the U23 setup and have been appearing at the first team several times. Some of these Orta surely was involved in, others I don’t know:
Struijk :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Summerville :thumbup: :thumbup:
Greenwood :thumbup:
Hjelde :thumbup: :thumbup:
Drameh :thumbup:
Poveda :think:
Davis :think:


In general, I think the main problem is that the expensive signings (Rodrigo, James, Llorente, Costa, Firpo) has been failing.
If we set Harrison as the border and look at the 5 signings more expensive than him (Rodrigo, James, Llorente, Raphinha, Costa, Firpo) there has been only 1 of the 6 that has been clearly a success. Also Augustin could be counted here as he was a potential very expensive signing, which failed massively.
This, the big signings, is the failed part of Orta's career at Leeds.

When it comes to players costing smaller transfer sums, I think Orta's rate of "good signings" are pretty good. To me that indicates that he is more suited for teams and leagues where there are less money availible (for example a bottom half La Liga team or a Championship team).

So, IF we get relegated I don't necessarily thinks Orta is the wrong man for rebuilding a competent Championship squad. But I don't think he should be the man building our (next) Premier League squad.
corkleedsmot
Jimmy Armfield's cardigan knitter
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Re: 2022 - 2023 Transfer Rumours and Squad Discussions

Post by corkleedsmot »

The smaller signings were vastly improved by Bielsa.
When you spend 150 million on absolute dross you are the problem.
He is def the wrong man. He is absolutely clueless and is out there saying they will continue doing the exact same things that have clearly failed.
How many premier league standard players are really in that list. It is very few. That is his job.

Lots of people showing what Frankfurt did with 25% of his funds. Buying cheap players.
We need to be identifying premier league players not solid championship players and do we sack him when we go up next time or let him spunk another 200 million or something?
He bought no midfielder in 8 windows. he left us with no striker in the prem for a whole season. The incompetence is staggering.

Dan James: He paid 25 million and obviously money we would never recoup because he lacks the quality and it is obvious (likeable player though imo) would have been an excellent buy for the failed transfer price originally but this is key for me he didn't understand the investment he was making and now there was 300-400% more risk. (sackable)
Rodrigo: 30 million for a 30 year old who would have no sell on value ever that doesn't even fit our system.
Raphinha: 17 million is his only saving grace but I really wonder who would have looked at him and not fancied him.
Llorente: there is a good player in there imo but maybe not suited to prem.
Koch : average player with little quality in reality. decent but really a low level prem player at best.
Firpo : I can't even be bothered to comment here

It seems like every player he buys in the spanish market he overpays for or/and ends up looking nearly idiotic. If you can't trust a guy to isolate talent in his own country why the hell would you leave him in charge. We need people buying premier league standard players early and if you are spending 30 million it is not on 30 year olds.

The last straw for me was hiring a manager who doesn't use wingers when you have continually spunked all your money on wingers. We are talking about Raphinha taking throw ins and playing right wing back in a relegation battle. Our best player in 30 years. He can't be trusted with a club the size of Leeds, He is a bloody lunatic and a complete fake.

Everyone seemed to know all this before Orta, the man just does not know his job. A complete chancer.

I don;t blame Radz or Kinnear. I think both have done a smashing job but have been let down by this moron
Polkadot
Eddie Gray's leftorium proprietor
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Re: 2022 - 2023 Transfer Rumours and Squad Discussions

Post by Polkadot »

corkleedsmot wrote:The smaller signings were vastly improved by Bielsa.
He bought no midfielder in 8 windows. he left us with no striker in the prem for a whole season. The incompetence is staggering.
The question here is also how many % of the blame for this is down to Orta and how many % is down to the manager (and other players around) ?

When it comes to midfielder for example, they clearly were after Gallagher which said no tu us and they had O'Brien within reach too, which we eventually decieded to not bid for. Is the missing out of O'Brien only Ortas fault or also someone elses fault?

I think it's very easy for us to sit at home and cast judgement when we only see a small part of the whole picture.
superfox
Simon Grayson's Hairdresser
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Joined: 24 Jul 2018, 20:28

Re: 2022 - 2023 Transfer Rumours and Squad Discussions

Post by superfox »

Polkadot wrote:
corkleedsmot wrote:The smaller signings were vastly improved by Bielsa.
He bought no midfielder in 8 windows. he left us with no striker in the prem for a whole season. The incompetence is staggering.
The question here is also how many % of the blame for this is down to Orta and how many % is down to the manager (and other players around) ?

When it comes to midfielder for example, they clearly were after Gallagher which said no tu us and they had O'Brien within reach too, which we eventually decieded to not bid for. Is the missing out of O'Brien only Ortas fault or also someone elses fault?

I think it's very easy for us to sit at home and cast judgement when we only see a small part of the whole picture.
After we passed on O'Brien, we splashed a mutch bigger sum on James, so it certainly was not the case we did not have enough money.
corkleedsmot
Jimmy Armfield's cardigan knitter
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Joined: 21 Jun 2012, 15:04

Re: 2022 - 2023 Transfer Rumours and Squad Discussions

Post by corkleedsmot »

Polkadot wrote:
corkleedsmot wrote:The smaller signings were vastly improved by Bielsa.
He bought no midfielder in 8 windows. he left us with no striker in the prem for a whole season. The incompetence is staggering.
The question here is also how many % of the blame for this is down to Orta and how many % is down to the manager (and other players around) ?

When it comes to midfielder for example, they clearly were after Gallagher which said no tu us and they had O'Brien within reach too, which we eventually decieded to not bid for. Is the missing out of O'Brien only Ortas fault or also someone elses fault?

I think it's very easy for us to sit at home and cast judgement when we only see a small part of the whole picture.
It is easy to say nah he doesn't get any blame if you look at one incident in a vacuum.

8 windows and no midfielder.
1 number 9 in the squad and went for the season basically with no 9. I don't blame him for missing out on a player here or there.
I blame him for a complete mismanagement of the entire project of the senior squad which is his main job.
Like my god this stuff is just THE BASICS OF HIS JOB
Lots of the youth players he has nothing much to do with.
It was very clear the whole way that he was failing Bielsa. Bielsa wanted players, he always said he wanted players.
I don't mind a slightly smaller squad personally. It isn't ideal but it has to be FULL of quality if you are going that route.
He filled it with dross. He is the director of football it is ALL HIS FAULT.

He is talking about doing this again and the small squad etc. Which is why I am absolutely raging.

I am near certain they already decided to move on from Bielsa and decided to not invest in him in January.
Orta quickly threw him under the bus. He needs to go, Anything Bielsa is sackable for Orta is DOUBLY.
He has to go. He failed horribly at Boro and the stories are awful there. He seems to have done the same here even down to signing Negredo/Rodrigo. He refuses to learn critical lessons and he has to go. I have so little confidence in him.
He is a mid championship level DoF at best who got lucky appointing Bielsa a world class coach.
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