Bielsa - will we suffer second season syndrome

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Deleted User 728

Re: Bielsa - will we suffer second season syndrome

Post by Deleted User 728 »

I can't believe that.

There is no "right time" to go up and the parachute payments massively outweigh any potential negatives.

Look at clubs like Burnley, Brighton and now Fulham and Huddersfield. They've gone up, then come down, and two of them have gone up again and established themselves for now.
Huddersfield were no better off in terms of the squad they had - and you could definitely say the same about Cardiff too - but they'll both be a major threat this year, I'm sure, purely because of the pulling power they'll have in terms of wages.

Having just read Pontus is getting a pay RISE to £20k/wk has really driven home the fact we're nowhere near that level just yet ..
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mattant250
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Re: Bielsa - will we suffer second season syndrome

Post by mattant250 »

EastYorkie wrote:My worry is that the fans will turn on Bielsa and Radz because they are expecting too much and then the knives come out and it creates a toxic atmosphere which will feed its way back into the club. I could well believe that if we are outside the top 6 at Xmas then Bielsa will be sacked as a result.
Just read through this thread and I agree with the grand majority of what you all are saying, but I would like to pick up on this paragraph.

Admittedly you haven't exactly said whether this scenario is fair or not, but I would like to argue that our expectations should be higher and we should be looking for promotion. Now, it depends on the level of investment to decide who to pin the blame on, but if we are outside the top 6 at Xmas, I would be bitterly disappointed.

I made a prediction at the end of last season. Either Bielsa will walk and we're back to square 1 or he stays and we don't invest. Either way I don't truly believe that we will get promoted this season (or maybe that is my self-preservation mechanism that doesn't allow me to believe in Leeds), and I think if that were the case, we would be well within our rights to be be frustrated.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong ;)
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EastYorkie
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Re: Bielsa - will we suffer second season syndrome

Post by EastYorkie »

mattant250 wrote:
EastYorkie wrote:My worry is that the fans will turn on Bielsa and Radz because they are expecting too much and then the knives come out and it creates a toxic atmosphere which will feed its way back into the club. I could well believe that if we are outside the top 6 at Xmas then Bielsa will be sacked as a result.
Just read through this thread and I agree with the grand majority of what you all are saying, but I would like to pick up on this paragraph.

Admittedly you haven't exactly said whether this scenario is fair or not, but I would like to argue that our expectations should be higher and we should be looking for promotion. Now, it depends on the level of investment to decide who to pin the blame on, but if we are outside the top 6 at Xmas, I would be bitterly disappointed.

I made a prediction at the end of last season. Either Bielsa will walk and we're back to square 1 or he stays and we don't invest. Either way I don't truly believe that we will get promoted this season (or maybe that is my self-preservation mechanism that doesn't allow me to believe in Leeds), and I think if that were the case, we would be well within our rights to be be frustrated.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong ;)
I think we would all love for you to be proven wrong :) !

The trouble is it is a very hard thing to make a call on at this stage. There are +ve reasons for why we might do better and then there are -ve reasons why we might to do worse than last year. Its a bit of a guess for most fans depending on how upbeat or downbeat you are.

+ve's - Bielsa wouldn't have agreed to stay on if he thought he couldn't get us promoted. He probably knew Jannson would leave and that some funds were available to get new players but equally he would be aware of the limitations the club operates with. Helder Costa should improve the attack. Bielsa knows we have some good young players coming through. Bielsa has a better feel for the capabilities of the squad and the demands of the Championship and still thinks the club can acheive promotion.

-ve's - personal opinion here, but losing Jannson is a big loss in terms of quality, but I do appreciate the argument that he upset the harmony of the team. All I know is that Beradi and Cooper are no where near the quality of Jannson and Bartley were a couple of years back. If only we had that defence of Rob Green, Ayling, Bartley, Jannson, Charlie Taylor then we would be in a better place. If it had been a choice of keeping Jannson and replacing Cooper and Beradi then I would have let Cooper and Beradi go. I don't think Bielsa is infallible, he's human after all. He clearly has some great coaching methods but I don't think his defensive tactics are right for the Championship, which are only compounded by Cooper and Beradi. I think he is possibly too loyal to his players and over rates some of them. Other Championship teams will be only too aware of what Leeds will be about and will be better prepared for us this year.

I have no choice but to put my trust in Bielsa and Radz and leave them to get on with it. Radz and Bielsa will be doing everything they can within their control and I cannot realisitically ask for more than that. If it goes pear shaped then so be it, I won't get too upset because acheiving something in the real world is not as easy as spouting off on an internet forum (which we all are quilty of at times) where money is no object. I don't expect Radz to throw his money at the club, and financial caution to the wind just for my benefit - it is a balancing act at all times.

Even if we don't get promotion it can still be a good season if you can see the club building it self back up and investment taking place. That characterises last season IMO. Things like buying good young players for the U23s, some breaking through, clearing the decks of some of the poorer players (that Orta brought in :lol: ), getting Thorp Arch sorted out, improving analytics, improving the back room fitness staff, then you get onto improving the commercial aspects of the club, generating more revenue, keeping costs under control, planning for ground developments, improving the public image and reputation of the club. All stuff that often goes unnoticed but is essential to get right on a long term basis.

All of these things have to be done to get LUFC ready for the Premiership and to stay there. The long term aim is be able compete with the likes of Man Utd, which clearly we can't at the moment. As one of their commentators said the other day ... Man Utd just swatted aside Leeds United :evil:

If things don't go as well as we all hope and pray for then I also hope that the fans don't turn nasty on either Bielsa or Radz or both ... I sense there is good work being done but alot of it is behind the scenes stuff. We are just starting on the third year of what Radz sai would take 5 years ( I have no idea where 'Radz' 3 year plan' came from, as he has never said such a thing that I know of) and I'm looking on the last two years as pretty +ve despite some obvious ups and downs along the way. So for the time being, I'm keeping the faith and we'll see what happens.
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Re: Bielsa - will we suffer second season syndrome

Post by Leonickroberts »

EastYorkie wrote:
mattant250 wrote:
EastYorkie wrote:My worry is that the fans will turn on Bielsa and Radz because they are expecting too much and then the knives come out and it creates a toxic atmosphere which will feed its way back into the club. I could well believe that if we are outside the top 6 at Xmas then Bielsa will be sacked as a result.
Just read through this thread and I agree with the grand majority of what you all are saying, but I would like to pick up on this paragraph.

Admittedly you haven't exactly said whether this scenario is fair or not, but I would like to argue that our expectations should be higher and we should be looking for promotion. Now, it depends on the level of investment to decide who to pin the blame on, but if we are outside the top 6 at Xmas, I would be bitterly disappointed.

I made a prediction at the end of last season. Either Bielsa will walk and we're back to square 1 or he stays and we don't invest. Either way I don't truly believe that we will get promoted this season (or maybe that is my self-preservation mechanism that doesn't allow me to believe in Leeds), and I think if that were the case, we would be well within our rights to be be frustrated.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong ;)
I think we would all love for you to be proven wrong :) !

The trouble is it is a very hard thing to make a call on at this stage. There are +ve reasons for why we might do better and then there are -ve reasons why we might to do worse than last year. Its a bit of a guess for most fans depending on how upbeat or downbeat you are.

+ve's - Bielsa wouldn't have agreed to stay on if he thought he couldn't get us promoted. He probably knew Jannson would leave and that some funds were available to get new players but equally he would be aware of the limitations the club operates with. Helder Costa should improve the attack. Bielsa knows we have some good young players coming through. Bielsa has a better feel for the capabilities of the squad and the demands of the Championship and still thinks the club can acheive promotion.

-ve's - personal opinion here, but losing Jannson is a big loss in terms of quality, but I do appreciate the argument that he upset the harmony of the team. All I know is that Beradi and Cooper are no where near the quality of Jannson and Bartley were a couple of years back. If only we had that defence of Rob Green, Ayling, Bartley, Jannson, Charlie Taylor then we would be in a better place. If it had been a choice of keeping Jannson and replacing Cooper and Beradi then I would have let Cooper and Beradi go. I don't think Bielsa is infallible, he's human after all. He clearly has some great coaching methods but I don't think his defensive tactics are right for the Championship, which are only compounded by Cooper and Beradi. I think he is possibly too loyal to his players and over rates some of them. Other Championship teams will be only too aware of what Leeds will be about and will be better prepared for us this year.

I have no choice but to put my trust in Bielsa and Radz and leave them to get on with it. Radz and Bielsa will be doing everything they can within their control and I cannot realisitically ask for more than that. If it goes pear shaped then so be it, I won't get too upset because acheiving something in the real world is not as easy as spouting off on an internet forum (which we all are quilty of at times) where money is no object. I don't expect Radz to throw his money at the club, and financial caution to the wind just for my benefit - it is a balancing act at all times.

Even if we don't get promotion it can still be a good season if you can see the club building it self back up and investment taking place. That characterises last season IMO. Things like buying good young players for the U23s, some breaking through, clearing the decks of some of the poorer players (that Orta brought in :lol: ), getting Thorp Arch sorted out, improving analytics, improving the back room fitness staff, then you get onto improving the commercial aspects of the club, generating more revenue, keeping costs under control, planning for ground developments, improving the public image and reputation of the club. All stuff that often goes unnoticed but is essential to get right on a long term basis.

All of these things have to be done to get LUFC ready for the Premiership and to stay there. The long term aim is be able compete with the likes of Man Utd, which clearly we can't at the moment. As one of their commentators said the other day ... Man Utd just swatted aside Leeds United :evil:

If things don't go as well as we all hope and pray for then I also hope that the fans don't turn nasty on either Bielsa or Radz or both ... I sense there is good work being done but alot of it is behind the scenes stuff. We are just starting on the third year of what Radz sai would take 5 years ( I have no idea where 'Radz' 3 year plan' came from, as he has never said such a thing that I know of) and I'm looking on the last two years as pretty +ve despite some obvious ups and downs along the way. So for the time being, I'm keeping the faith and we'll see what happens.
Absolutely great post EastYorkie, really measured and thoughtful. Top stuff. :thumbup:
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Re: Bielsa - will we suffer second season syndrome

Post by Selby White »

Leonickroberts wrote:
EastYorkie wrote:
mattant250 wrote:
EastYorkie wrote:My worry is that the fans will turn on Bielsa and Radz because they are expecting too much and then the knives come out and it creates a toxic atmosphere which will feed its way back into the club. I could well believe that if we are outside the top 6 at Xmas then Bielsa will be sacked as a result.
Just read through this thread and I agree with the grand majority of what you all are saying, but I would like to pick up on this paragraph.

Admittedly you haven't exactly said whether this scenario is fair or not, but I would like to argue that our expectations should be higher and we should be looking for promotion. Now, it depends on the level of investment to decide who to pin the blame on, but if we are outside the top 6 at Xmas, I would be bitterly disappointed.

I made a prediction at the end of last season. Either Bielsa will walk and we're back to square 1 or he stays and we don't invest. Either way I don't truly believe that we will get promoted this season (or maybe that is my self-preservation mechanism that doesn't allow me to believe in Leeds), and I think if that were the case, we would be well within our rights to be be frustrated.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong ;)
I think we would all love for you to be proven wrong :) !

The trouble is it is a very hard thing to make a call on at this stage. There are +ve reasons for why we might do better and then there are -ve reasons why we might to do worse than last year. Its a bit of a guess for most fans depending on how upbeat or downbeat you are.

+ve's - Bielsa wouldn't have agreed to stay on if he thought he couldn't get us promoted. He probably knew Jannson would leave and that some funds were available to get new players but equally he would be aware of the limitations the club operates with. Helder Costa should improve the attack. Bielsa knows we have some good young players coming through. Bielsa has a better feel for the capabilities of the squad and the demands of the Championship and still thinks the club can acheive promotion.

-ve's - personal opinion here, but losing Jannson is a big loss in terms of quality, but I do appreciate the argument that he upset the harmony of the team. All I know is that Beradi and Cooper are no where near the quality of Jannson and Bartley were a couple of years back. If only we had that defence of Rob Green, Ayling, Bartley, Jannson, Charlie Taylor then we would be in a better place. If it had been a choice of keeping Jannson and replacing Cooper and Beradi then I would have let Cooper and Beradi go. I don't think Bielsa is infallible, he's human after all. He clearly has some great coaching methods but I don't think his defensive tactics are right for the Championship, which are only compounded by Cooper and Beradi. I think he is possibly too loyal to his players and over rates some of them. Other Championship teams will be only too aware of what Leeds will be about and will be better prepared for us this year.

I have no choice but to put my trust in Bielsa and Radz and leave them to get on with it. Radz and Bielsa will be doing everything they can within their control and I cannot realisitically ask for more than that. If it goes pear shaped then so be it, I won't get too upset because acheiving something in the real world is not as easy as spouting off on an internet forum (which we all are quilty of at times) where money is no object. I don't expect Radz to throw his money at the club, and financial caution to the wind just for my benefit - it is a balancing act at all times.

Even if we don't get promotion it can still be a good season if you can see the club building it self back up and investment taking place. That characterises last season IMO. Things like buying good young players for the U23s, some breaking through, clearing the decks of some of the poorer players (that Orta brought in :lol: ), getting Thorp Arch sorted out, improving analytics, improving the back room fitness staff, then you get onto improving the commercial aspects of the club, generating more revenue, keeping costs under control, planning for ground developments, improving the public image and reputation of the club. All stuff that often goes unnoticed but is essential to get right on a long term basis.

All of these things have to be done to get LUFC ready for the Premiership and to stay there. The long term aim is be able compete with the likes of Man Utd, which clearly we can't at the moment. As one of their commentators said the other day ... Man Utd just swatted aside Leeds United :evil:

If things don't go as well as we all hope and pray for then I also hope that the fans don't turn nasty on either Bielsa or Radz or both ... I sense there is good work being done but alot of it is behind the scenes stuff. We are just starting on the third year of what Radz sai would take 5 years ( I have no idea where 'Radz' 3 year plan' came from, as he has never said such a thing that I know of) and I'm looking on the last two years as pretty +ve despite some obvious ups and downs along the way. So for the time being, I'm keeping the faith and we'll see what happens.
Absolutely great post EastYorkie, really measured and thoughtful. Top stuff. :thumbup:
Agree its a good read.

To add think the Championship is wide open certainly more so than the Prem. As always there will be good wins and bad defeats on the way but think a good start following the Play Off disappointment would be a great boost to confidence.
A team with confidence will go a long way towards gaining promotion.
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Re: Bielsa - will we suffer second season syndrome

Post by phil62 »

That Leeds are in a better place than they were 3 or even 5 years ago is undeniable. Whilst it was bitterly disappointing to fall at the last hurdle last season, it WAS a fantastic campaign: some superb attacking football, ER packed every week, a great atmosphere at every game home or away. We got back some pride and some self belief. Bielsa is already working the players very hard if news reports are anything to go by, and they will be ready (although Australia was an unwelcome distraction in my opinion).

The Championship is seldom boring because anyone can beat anyone on their day. We weren't ready for the PL but we might be if we can win automatic promotion convincingly this time around. Bielsa won't be sacked, he might walk, but he won't be sacked. He is our best chance for many years and by far the most important signing of the Summer.

I can't wait for it to start.
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Re: Bielsa - will we suffer second season syndrome

Post by Nic »

phil62 wrote:That Leeds are in a better place than they were 3 or even 5 years ago is undeniable. Whilst it was bitterly disappointing to fall at the last hurdle last season, it WAS a fantastic campaign: some superb attacking football, ER packed every week, a great atmosphere at every game home or away. We got back some pride and some self belief. Bielsa is already working the players very hard if news reports are anything to go by, and they will be ready (although Australia was an unwelcome distraction in my opinion).

The Championship is seldom boring because anyone can beat anyone on their day. We weren't ready for the PL but we might be if we can win automatic promotion convincingly this time around. Bielsa won't be sacked, he might walk, but he won't be sacked. He is our best chance for many years and by far the most important signing of the Summer.

I can't wait for it to start.
Agreed I am looking forward to it. With the loan signings it does seem like a glory or bust, a bit like 89. Do think by Christmas we'll be signing different names as stars as so many new faces.
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Re: Bielsa - will we suffer second season syndrome

Post by PhoenixUnited »

It's a new season and, for me, it's a clean slate so far as how competitive we will be is concerned.

It is dangerous to assume that we will carry on with more or less (or better indeed) with the same level we got to last season.

I can hope for a start to the season as we did last time, MC getting the team hitting the ground running and the players quickly finding form. But it's not a foregone conclusion that all of that will come together in concert and immediately
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