10 games in - The big picture

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Leonickroberts
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Re: 10 games in - The big picture

Post by Leonickroberts »

isrodger wrote:Frustrating thing is we should have won every game. That said, on chances taken relative to those created, we must have the worst attack and worst defence in the league!

It will be very interesting to see how we perform without cooper, with 2 wingers at fullback and 2 relative midgets @ centre back. One thing I did notice against WBA is Bamford has been detailed the Jansson role at defending corners.... he doesn’t mark and is free to attack the ball.. a role that can’t be handed over to Nketiah ! Given we conceded against Forest & Swansea from set plays when Bamford was subbed, from a defensive perspective it might be wise to keep Bamford on the pitch when bringing on Nketiah, play him as a #10 and bring off one off Klich/Forshaw/Shackleton.
Always glass half full eh ISR? ;)
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Nic
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Re: 10 games in - The big picture

Post by Nic »

isrodger wrote:Frustrating thing is we should have won every game. That said, on chances taken relative to those created, we must have the worst attack and worst defence in the league!
:wtf: :wtf: :eh:

We've conceded 5 goals this season, lowest in the league, have 5 clean sheets, highest in the league, and the only team not to have concede more than a single goal in any match. Not sure how that comes across as worst defence. We've scored 14 goals, which might not be the highest in the league but far from the lowest (7 goals - highest is 18 goals)
isrodger
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Re: 10 games in - The big picture

Post by isrodger »

Nic wrote:
isrodger wrote:Frustrating thing is we should have won every game. That said, on chances taken relative to those created, we must have the worst attack and worst defence in the league!
:wtf: :wtf: :eh:

We've conceded 5 goals this season, lowest in the league, have 5 clean sheets, highest in the league, and the only team not to have concede more than a single goal in any match. Not sure how that comes across as worst defence. We've scored 14 goals, which might not be the highest in the league but far from the lowest (7 goals - highest is 18 goals)
The critical part of the sentence is ‘relative to those created’ Example Derby at home 1 maybe 2 chances created by the opposition 1 goal scored. Forest home 3 chances created by the opposition 1 goal scored. Charlton away 14 chances created by ourselves Nil taken. Our conversion rate at both ends of the park must be more or less the worst in the division. We must create 3 or 4 times as many chances as the average side in the division and given the level of possession we have the amount of chances created against are probably a third of those the average side. That certainly isn’t bourn out in the goals scored and conceded stats.
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Selby White
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Re: 10 games in - The big picture

Post by Selby White »

Can see what you are saying ISR but have to disagree with your statement on the best/worst defence in the league(based on chances created).

The thread is about "the big picture" looking at 10 matches not one or two individual moments and on the face of it if you look at strike rate per chance your argument does carry a point.

However its what constitutes a chance and the quality of the chance. Many of our shots are from distance or in a packed penalty area because of the way teams set up against us and not clear cut. Alternately the few chances opponents get (other than long punts) are often a little more clear cut because its often on the counter and not so many defenders about.
In this instance I would expect a better strike rate.

I think people need to stop reading the BBC stats and actually judge what is happening, always hard to score against packed defences. A shot from 20yards through a crowded penalty area isn't the same as a tap in from 6yards with defenders scurrying back.

For me the fact we limit our opponents to so few chances, have conceded less and have more clean sheets tells me so far this season our defence is the best in the division.
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Re: 10 games in - The big picture

Post by isrodger »

Selby White wrote:Can see what you are saying ISR but have to disagree with your statement on the best/worst defence in the league(based on chances created).

The thread is about "the big picture" looking at 10 matches not one or two individual moments and on the face of it if you look at strike rate per chance your argument does carry a point.

However its what constitutes a chance and the quality of the chance. Many of our shots are from distance or in a packed penalty area because of the way teams set up against us and not clear cut. Alternately the few chances opponents get (other than long punts) are often a little more clear cut because its often on the counter and not so many defenders about.
In this instance I would expect a better strike rate.

I think people need to stop reading the BBC stats and actually judge what is happening, always hard to score against packed defences. A shot from 20yards through a crowded penalty area isn't the same as a tap in from 6yards with defenders scurrying back.

For me the fact we limit our opponents to so few chances, have conceded less and have more clean sheets tells me so far this season our defence is the best in the division.
Firstly - as you correctly identify -Im not actually saying we have the worst attack or defence in the league, and obviously the way teams and we are set up is an important factor. My assessment is not actually based on BBC stats (however I suspect if I looked at the shots on goal to goals figs to goals - I’m pretty sure I’d be more or less right) my assessment is based on attending games, where our conversion rate, particularly defensively is poor.

Again this is merely anecdotal but demonstrates the point in question. Corners - on average this season we will have had between 12 & 15 corners per league game and have yet to score. The opposition will have had less than half that figure and have scored 3 goals from 1st or 2nd phase play.

As regards the big picture if your competitive set (as was the case last season Norwich / Sheff Utd - quote bielsa ) converts 3 times as many chances as yourself Its hard to conclude you are more potent in attack. As regards the defence, we look solid as teams invariably don’t have the ball to attack us, if and when they do, on that rare occasion we are under pressure there is a good chance they score. The combination of our inability to finish off teams and our defensive fragility creates a level of tension in the stands that transmits to the players, which will only increase as the season progresses.

My big picture conclusion Re the first 10 games, is we are playing exhilarating football; our performances have been good we should have taken 30 points. The only games we could and should have possibly dropped a point were WBA, Barnsley and Swansea. Our performance level will however drop off for a period and If we are to get promoted we need to address our shortfalls in both defence and attack. I also believe our defensive weaknesses also comprise our selection and point man in attack.

I will put my neck on the line here selby and offer a little foresight of our 11th game. I’m not sure we will win, lose or draw, but we will have double the amount of chances and corners to Millwall, however they will score from one of those corners and we won’t. Let’s hope I’m wrong. :think:
Nic
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Re: 10 games in - The big picture

Post by Nic »

Bielsa ball is about midfield possession which probably limits real chances at either end, only 19 goals scored by either team at Leeds matches, only Brentford on 17 is lower. I can understand what you mean though by that we have the worst attack/defence in that it seems when an opposition do get a chance on goal they score, where it is not always the same for us. The system we play is to stifle out the opposition's chances so they don't get the opportunity to be in a goal scoring position, and I think being the team with the highest amount of clean sheets and the only team not to have conceded more than one goal in any match shows that its working. Maybe because you don't see a range of attacks from the opposition being defended well with a set of solid saves of goal scoring chances it's easy to see that as a weak defence, but that's forgetting the fact that its because more defensive effort is put into stopping them getting the chances.

As to attack, it depends on looking at what chances we have verses other teams. By numbers it seems we have a lot but they are different chances, we tend to keep possession and move up, and allow the opposition to group in defence so that a lot of our chances are not clear shot ones as opposed to teams that counter and have one or two players going against just a couple of defenders. Even if you take the shots on target, how many of them still have a number of players between the ball and the goal, so on target but lower chance of actually scoring. Yes we may miss absolute sitters, but so do the opposition, look at WBA who blasted over what should have been a good chance at scoring. It also depends what you want out of your main striker, as posted elsewhere, Bamford does a good role at defending set pieces and we've conceded goals after he's been subbed off. Some teams pack their defence with the idea of a fast attacker to break on the counter, others have a big attacking force under the mentality we will score more goals than you, we are not either of those.
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Re: 10 games in - The big picture

Post by isrodger »

I think there are great similarities with this team and those latterly turned out by arsenal under Wenger. The difference probably being Arsenal had more ruthless forwards. Whilst I’m a huge fan of bielsa; does he place too much emphasis on style over substance, to be a winning manager. I don’t wish to go over the Jansson debate again, but White looks awesome in possession and defensively he does lack physicality especially from a standing start.
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Selby White
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Re: 10 games in - The big picture

Post by Selby White »

isrodger wrote: Again this is merely anecdotal but demonstrates the point in question. Corners - on average this season we will have had between 12 & 15 corners per league game and have yet to score. The opposition will have had less than half that figure and have scored 3 goals from 1st or 2nd phase play.
Although I agree your point is valid and debatable your figures are a little exaggerated. We are averaging just under 8 corners per game and have only once been in the 12 to 15 range you quote as average (13 versus Charlton).

You are correct 3 goals we have conceded as a result of a corner is something to consider/improve (its from 44 corners so one every 15). Not sure how much is down to height as although I've not yet checked suspect this ratio is no better than when we had Pontus in the team.
May be wrong but I also think one if not two of the goals conceded from corners were after Bamford was subbed, actually think he has an important job defending set pieces.
That may or may not improve (as you suggest today) but again its about the big picture so lets look again in 10 matches time. Bit like doom & gloom following defeats and elation following victories, 10 matches gives a fair judgement.

Also seem to recall we have actually scored at least one from a corner (Wigan).

To add a positive note I think its a fantastic achievement that in 10 matches we've only conceded 2 goals from open play :thumbup:
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Selby White
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Re: 10 games in - The big picture

Post by Selby White »

isrodger wrote:I think there are great similarities with this team and those latterly turned out by arsenal under Wenger. The difference probably being Arsenal had more ruthless forwards. Whilst I’m a huge fan of bielsa; does he place too much emphasis on style over substance, to be a winning manager. I don’t wish to go over the Jansson debate again, but White looks awesome in possession and defensively he does lack physicality especially from a standing start.
Agree with you about the Arsenal team, very much our way of playing. I'm sure our coaching staff are very aware of the shortfalls of our team andare doing everything in their powers to maintain improvement.

As for the Jansson/White debate I also agree this isn't the thread plenty of other places to discuss it (this is about overall team performance and progress).
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Re: 10 games in - The big picture

Post by johnh »

isrodger wrote:Frustrating thing is we should have won every game. That said, on chances taken relative to those created, we must have the worst attack and worst defence in the league!

It will be very interesting to see how we perform without cooper, with 2 wingers at fullback and 2 relative midgets @ centre back. One thing I did notice against WBA is Bamford has been detailed the Jansson role at defending corners.... he doesn’t mark and is free to attack the ball.. a role that can’t be handed over to Nketiah ! Given we conceded against Forest & Swansea from set plays when Bamford was subbed, from a defensive perspective it might be wise to keep Bamford on the pitch when bringing on Nketiah, play him as a #10 and bring off one off Klich/Forshaw/Shackleton.
Don't see any games but it appears Bamford works his socks off. Does a lot of defending. Why not play him in the back four to replace Cooper? Then play Nketiah up front. We can hardly miss Bamford's contribution 'up-front'. (Only slightly 'tongue in cheek' this post.) :D
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