Who’s a naughty boy

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The Fonz
Eddie Gray's leftorium proprietor
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Joined: 13 Mar 2021, 22:15

Re: Who’s a naughty boy

Post by The Fonz »

Gascoigne wrote:
The Fonz wrote:
Gascoigne wrote:
The Fonz wrote:
Gascoigne wrote:Not saying it's the case here, but it can be a sign that the players are out of their depth and need to either up their game or go down a division for a while.
So what are you saying?

A few of those near the top of the list would likely leave if we went down.

To me it shows they are still committed to the cause.
I'm saying what I've just said.

To repeat:

I'm not saying it is the case here, but it can be a sign that they are out of their depth.
You're missing the point you have said what you are not saying is the reason but was interested in why you think our disciplinary record looks poor.

For example Firpo got booked today and I'm sure some will criticise but for me he took one for the team as they player was away. Pleased he fouled the player they are not so quick without their legs.

Compare that to Struijk getting sent off against Liverpool, not even a foul was sent of due to the severity of the injury.
Same thing Grealish breaking Dallas leg yet he wasn't sent off which was the right decision in my view as it was two committed players coming together.
But Struijk red card shows on our record.

Quite a few of the bookings are for goal celebrations, silly way for racking up points but players at certain clubs get away with it.
Factor [X] can be present in [Y] phenomenon.

Y phenomenon is present.

I don't know if X explains it in this case.

I merely note that X can be an explanation for Y.

Not sure what point you think I'm missing in giving your examples. Factor X can be accompanied by factors A, B, C and D, or W, M, K and F.

I repeat that if lots of players in a side are picking up a disciplinary record, it could be because they aren't ready to play at that level. But I only say it is one possible factor. I don't say it is a factor here, because I simply don't know. I merely say that, in general, it sometimes is (perhaps accompanied by other factors/reasons) and therefore it's worth considering, alongside other things.
The examples are my readings of some bookings not going to analyse all.

My question is asking your opinion on why you feel our record is poor?
Sniffer
Arthur Fairclough's milliner
Posts: 2997
Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 17:03

Re: Who’s a naughty boy

Post by Sniffer »

Gascoigne wrote:
The Fonz wrote:
Gascoigne wrote:
The Fonz wrote:
Gascoigne wrote:Not saying it's the case here, but it can be a sign that the players are out of their depth and need to either up their game or go down a division for a while.
So what are you saying?

A few of those near the top of the list would likely leave if we went down.

To me it shows they are still committed to the cause.
I'm saying what I've just said.

To repeat:

I'm not saying it is the case here, but it can be a sign that they are out of their depth.
You're missing the point you have said what you are not saying is the reason but was interested in why you think our disciplinary record looks poor.

For example Firpo got booked today and I'm sure some will criticise but for me he took one for the team as they player was away. Pleased he fouled the player they are not so quick without their legs.

Compare that to Struijk getting sent off against Liverpool, not even a foul was sent of due to the severity of the injury.
Same thing Grealish breaking Dallas leg yet he wasn't sent off which was the right decision in my view as it was two committed players coming together.
But Struijk red card shows on our record.

Quite a few of the bookings are for goal celebrations, silly way for racking up points but players at certain clubs get away with it.
Factor [X] can be present in [Y] phenomenon.

Y phenomenon is present.

I don't know if X explains it in this case.

I merely note that X can be an explanation for Y.

Not sure what point you think I'm missing in giving your examples. Factor X can be accompanied by factors A, B, C and D, or W, M, K and F.

I repeat that if lots of players in a side are picking up a disciplinary record, it could be because they aren't ready to play at that level. But I only say it is one possible factor. I don't say it is a factor here, because I simply don't know. I merely say that, in general, it sometimes is (perhaps accompanied by other factors/reasons) and therefore it's worth considering, alongside other things.
I know what you're saying, Mr G. I was thinking this earlier when the commentators were banging on about it. Much as I love them, many of our players are Championship standard and have been playing out of their skin for the past 4 years. They don't necessarily have the skill-set or the speed (of legs or thought) to make the right tackle. Added to that they are playing against cheats footballers who are more attuned to falling over if someone breathes on them.
There were also some ridiculously stupid cards. :roll:
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PhoenixUnited
Dick Ray's Talent Spotter
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Re: Who’s a naughty boy

Post by PhoenixUnited »

We have picked up a very embarrassing record but I honestly do not believe that we are a dirty team nor one that stoops to the dark arts. Mostly the bookings have been for silly, niggly fouls and coming up from the Championship perhaps our guys in the second season have been somewhat naive in instances where opponents have "won" fouls and freekicks etc. I can accept that this might be a case that there is gulf in the quality of the players which has not helped but what has made it worse is that we don't have the older, wiser heads in the squad that help to keep the troops in line on the pitch during matches.
That said there is a disciplinary problem in the team. There is too much of players picking up silly Yellow cards for kicking the ball away and the like which needs to be reigned in going forward
Keep The Faith / WAL
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Selby White
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Re: Who’s a naughty boy

Post by Selby White »

PhoenixUnited wrote: That said there is a disciplinary problem in the team. There is too much of players picking up silly Yellow cards for kicking the ball away and the like which needs to be reigned in going forward
This I can Definately agree with.

Stupid bookings that add up, dirty team only to those that don't watch.
Keep your face always toward the sunshine - and shadows will fall behind you.
Gascoigne
Terry Venables's car dealer
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Joined: 15 May 2022, 17:22

Re: Who’s a naughty boy

Post by Gascoigne »

Sniffer wrote:
Gascoigne wrote:Not saying it's the case here, but it can be a sign that the players are out of their depth and need to either up their game or go down a division for a while.

I repeat that if lots of players in a side are picking up a disciplinary record, it could be because they aren't ready to play at that level. But I only say it is one possible factor. I don't say it is a factor here, because I simply don't know. I merely say that, in general, it sometimes is (perhaps accompanied by other factors/reasons) and therefore it's worth considering, alongside other things.
I know what you're saying, Mr G. I was thinking this earlier when the commentators were banging on about it. Much as I love them, many of our players are Championship standard and have been playing out of their skin for the past 4 years. They don't necessarily have the skill-set or the speed (of legs or thought) to make the right tackle. Added to that they are playing against cheats footballers who are more attuned to falling over if someone breathes on them.
There were also some ridiculously stupid cards. :roll:
I think some of the 'hard men' in the game are just sub-standard players who are operating above their comfort level. This will be controversial on here as he was a Leeds player, but I am thinking of players like Vinnie Jones. Had he dropped down a division or two, would he be seen as a hard man, or just another anonymous footballer - good in his own way, but nothing special? I remember the infamous challenge on Cantona and I have always thought it disgraceful that he admits to clattering players to shake them up, but at the same time, I recognise this as an attitude that is quite common in grassroots English football.

I think a distinction can be made between that and the type of passion that a 'physical' player will always have and that may get him into trouble. Roy Keane is an example of this: a good player who was comfortable at the elite level, but he could handle himself at the same time. Admittedly, he did also cross the line on occasion. The Leeds teams of the 1960s and 1970s under Revie were in the same vein: very skilled but also physically tough in their execution of football. The whole 'Dirty Leeds' thing is mythology, largely driven by a hostile London press/media, and to some extent by naive Leeds 'fans' who are drawn to what they perceive is the contrarian culture of the club. However, like most myths, there's an element of truth to it. The culture put in place by Don Revie was built around pride in the club and a small core of players who were emotionally committed.

Which category do some of the current Leeds players fall into? Swimming out of their depth or just tough players who may have an emotional stake in success and failure and the club itself and consequently cross the line sometimes? Leeds have now broken the record, with the most number of bookings in a season. Others high up the historic list - Everton, Derby, Sunderland - did poorly in the relevant seasons, narrowly avoiding relegation.

Was Marcelo Bielsa trying to achieve something similar to Revie: a distinctive Leeds school or style, with players proud to wear the shirt, etc?
The Fonz
Eddie Gray's leftorium proprietor
Posts: 865
Joined: 13 Mar 2021, 22:15

Re: Who’s a naughty boy

Post by The Fonz »

Gascoigne wrote:
Sniffer wrote:
Gascoigne wrote:Not saying it's the case here, but it can be a sign that the players are out of their depth and need to either up their game or go down a division for a while.

I repeat that if lots of players in a side are picking up a disciplinary record, it could be because they aren't ready to play at that level. But I only say it is one possible factor. I don't say it is a factor here, because I simply don't know. I merely say that, in general, it sometimes is (perhaps accompanied by other factors/reasons) and therefore it's worth considering, alongside other things.
I know what you're saying, Mr G. I was thinking this earlier when the commentators were banging on about it. Much as I love them, many of our players are Championship standard and have been playing out of their skin for the past 4 years. They don't necessarily have the skill-set or the speed (of legs or thought) to make the right tackle. Added to that they are playing against cheats footballers who are more attuned to falling over if someone breathes on them.
There were also some ridiculously stupid cards. :roll:
I think some of the 'hard men' in the game are just sub-standard players who are operating above their comfort level. This will be controversial on here as he was a Leeds player, but I am thinking of players like Vinnie Jones. Had he dropped down a division or two, would he be seen as a hard man, or just another anonymous footballer - good in his own way, but nothing special? I remember the infamous challenge on Cantona and I have always thought it disgraceful that he admits to clattering players to shake them up, but at the same time, I recognise this as an attitude that is quite common in grassroots English football.

I think a distinction can be made between that and the type of passion that a 'physical' player will always have and that may get him into trouble. Roy Keane is an example of this: a good player who was comfortable at the elite level, but he could handle himself at the same time. Admittedly, he did also cross the line on occasion. The Leeds teams of the 1960s and 1970s under Revie were in the same vein: very skilled but also physically tough in their execution of football. The whole 'Dirty Leeds' thing is mythology, largely driven by a hostile London press/media, and to some extent by naive Leeds 'fans' who are drawn to what they perceive is the contrarian culture of the club. However, like most myths, there's an element of truth to it. The culture put in place by Don Revie was built around pride in the club and a small core of players who were emotionally committed.

Which category do some of the current Leeds players fall into? Swimming out of their depth or just tough players who may have an emotional stake in success and failure and the club itself and consequently cross the line sometimes? Leeds have now broken the record, with the most number of bookings in a season. Others high up the historic list - Everton, Derby, Sunderland - did poorly in the relevant seasons, narrowly avoiding relegation.

Was Marcelo Bielsa trying to achieve something similar to Revie: a distinctive Leeds school or style, with players proud to wear the shirt, etc?
It's a forum where we all have opinions so why not answer your own questions with how you see it before asking the rest of us ?
Then we can debate using our own opinions rather than you just trying to get a reaction.
Saxon
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Re: Who’s a naughty boy

Post by Saxon »

The Leeds teams of the 1960s and 1970s under Revie were in the same vein: very skilled but also physically tough in their execution of football. The whole 'Dirty Leeds' thing is mythology, largely driven by a hostile London press/media, and to some extent by naive Leeds 'fans' who are drawn to what they perceive is the contrarian culture of the club. However, like most myths, there's an element of truth to it. The culture put in place by Don Revie was built around pride in the club and a small core of players who were emotionally committed.


Was Marcelo Bielsa trying to achieve something similar to Revie: a distinctive Leeds school or style, with players proud to wear the shirt, etc?[/quote]


Jack Charlton once told me, "We have got to be careful when we ( Norman, Willie Bell, Billy) start 'dishing it out', because the other teams defence are going to retaliate on our forwards, if you havn't got a couple of hard men up front your forwards are going to feel some pain"
Unlike most myths the 'Dirty Leeds' one has more than an 'element' of truth to it.

I believe Marcelo was trying to create a proud, distinctive leeds school style. If he had succeeded it would be accepted in football history along with the WM style of the 30's Arsenal, Bill Nicholson's push & run Spurs of the 50's, the attacking waves of Manchester United of the 60's & 70's, wingless wonders of England 1966, and every other successful formation since.
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