Bielsa v Marsch

[Another Northern Soul]

Created this new thread in the hope of not cluttering up other threads with folk arguing for/against MB's dismissal and JM's recruitment.

It seems this debate will continue for some time so, in the hope of keeping match threads for instance on topic, can you please post your comments here on this specific matter.

Many thanks

[Costy]

I don't think it's really a debate or even a disagreement, just more that some of us feel it's important to point out that it's unfair to claim that we are now somehow 'better' than we were before. Under Marsch we've had a much easier run of games than the one preceding Bielsa's sacking, so we're not comparing like for like. Someone said that they can name many games where we played terrible under Bielsa; for every one of them I reckon there's a dozen where we played scintillating football, the likes of which hadn't been since the early O'Leary days.

[Barlow Boy]

Marsch has 3 wins, a last minute winner against relegated Norwich, a 0-3 win against relegated Watford and a win against ten man Wolves in which we were battered in the first half until the debatable sending off.

Bore draws against Southampton and Palace too, not to mention an embarrassing home defeat by Villa.

[Another Northern Soul]

We deserved to beat Leicester in both matches, under Bielsa and then ostensibly Marsch.

He said too much about over-training under MB, but that is not the same as saying he was blaming Bielsa for every injury. I think some people mixed up 'murder ball' with standard training - as far as I remember, there weren't any injuries sustained in murder ball, but heyho.

Facts as far as I'm concerned are - the players DID look tired compared to last season; we had conceded 32 goals in something like 8 fixtures; we weren't playing scintillating football, the team has been fits and starts performance-wise all season.

I loved Bielsa but something had to change, it didn't look like there was any improvements happening and relegation was becoming a real prospect. It still is of course but with a new manager. It's about points now, not style or excitement. Some will disagree with that opinion and that's entirely reasonable, but I will be hurt more if relegated than by how badly Bielsa was treated. And I hated how badly that was!

[Aqua-]

TBH I don't like the subject of this thread.
I don't think it matters that mych at the moment. JM is our manager now and we need to give him our full support.
I too felt MB deserved to stay till end of the season, and that he would've turned things around, but again, doesn't matter now. At the end JM didn't plan this, it was our owner who made the choice.
I root for JM to succeed because his success is our success. We can (and should!) be in favor of both.

[Scott]

If you compare like for like games, we were arguably lucky to beat Norwich and Watford under Bielsa. A deflected winner against the former at Carrow Road and narrowly beat a terrible Watford at Elland Road because we couldn’t get a second. Both games against Wolves we got a last minute goal to get a result. And against Palace the only real difference between the two was the lack of last minute intervention on Monday. The only big difference when you look like for like is Villa, where we were a shambles under Marsch.

I don’t think it’s about like for like personally though. Looking at 2022 as a whole, West Ham away aside, we were on the slide big style and performances were getting worse and worse. Something was amiss in the squad, be it physical or mental fatigue, and nothing was being done to try to change and address the issues. We just kept going with the same tactic and same approach even as the results got worse and worse. I know a lot of people disagree, and it’s sad that it ended as it did, but Bielsa refused to try anything new, and unfortunately I’ve got no doubt in my mind the slide would have continued, ultimately ending in relegation.

The football we are watching now isn’t that fun to watch, but it’s addressing some, not all, but some, of the biggest issues that were pushing us towards trouble, like our defensive frailty and the failings of the man to man approach against teams with mobility up top. The next step is to try to bring some sort of attacking prowess into the team to couple with that defensive improvement.

[Costy]

TBH I don't like the subject of this thread.
I don't think it matters that mych at the moment. JM is our manager now and we need to give him our full support.
I too felt MB deserved to stay till end of the season, and that he would've turned things around, but again, doesn't matter now. At the end JM didn't plan this, it was our owner who made the choice.
I root for JM to succeed because his success is our success. We can (and should!) be in favor of both.

I'm sure we all do. I just don't like the suggestion that Marsch has turned things around and that we're better now. We've only played mediocre and poor teams since he took over, and he's had the benefit of getting some important players back in recent games. We don't look any better to me. We still look pretty poor in fact, and while I have nothing against Marsch I would rather Bielsa had been given the chance he had undoubtedly earned to keep us up.
I suppose these next three games will tell us a bit more - we're more defensive now so probably won't get the big hammerings, but I still can't see us getting a point.

[Selby White]

If you compare like for like games, we were arguably lucky to beat Norwich and Watford under Bielsa.

Seriously?

Did you watch the Norwich game under Marsch was dominating until he put a defender (Koch for Rodrigo) on for an attacker which allowed them to come onto US and equalise.
Joffy got a late winner and Meslier saved with his face for us to hang on.
It's not just under MB we got lucky.

If I had a football club I'd opt for Bielsa every day of the week over Marsch.

That doesn't mean I won't be wanting him to do well like some suggest just thought the club was disgusting in their treatment of Marcelo.
In fact I'll say devious that they waited until we had played a run of games against top sides and a easier run coming up before pulling the plug.

My problem is of course I value loyalty.

[The Fonz]

At least we now know after today that Raphina is a right wing back
Beggars the question and considering today's formation why Shackleton played 90 mins for the 23s so not on the bench today.

[Scott]

If you compare like for like games, we were arguably lucky to beat Norwich and Watford under Bielsa.

Seriously?

Did you watch the Norwich game under Marsch was dominating until he put a defender (Koch for Rodrigo) on for an attacker which allowed them to come onto US and equalise.
Joffy got a late winner and Meslier saved with his face for us to hang on.
It's not just under MB we got lucky.

If I had a football club I'd opt for Bielsa every day of the week over Marsch.

That doesn't mean I won't be wanting him to do well like some suggest just thought the club was disgusting in their treatment of Marcelo.
In fact I'll say devious that they waited until we had played a run of games against top sides and a easier run coming up before pulling the plug.

My problem is of course I value loyalty.

Oh no don’t get me wrong, we were definitely fortunate to beat Norwich under Marsch, and the score against Watford massively flattered us. I just meant that we’ve not been setting the heather alight under either manager this season, even when winning.

When it was good, there’s no doubt that the football under Bielsa was irresistible and a joy to watch. I personally just think that magic had sadly gone by the time he was let go. And personally, I think we’d have struggled to right the ship without a change at some point. Don’t disagree that the way it was done with the leaks to the press etc was wrong though. The club didn’t cover themselves in glory there.