Bielsa v Marsch

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judy
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Re: Bielsa v Marsch

Post by judy »

MOT1964 wrote:
frogmill0 wrote:Forgive my tactical ignorance but what's the rationale behind playing it narrow? Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be working for us and it leaves us horribly exposed on the flanks.
https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/4-2-2-2 ... ellegrini/


Thanks, MOT, but I’m still confused and I think our players are! Hopefully, something clicks tomorrow, we’ve got to win!
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Selby White
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Re: Bielsa v Marsch

Post by Selby White »

MOT1964 wrote:
frogmill0 wrote:Forgive my tactical ignorance but what's the rationale behind playing it narrow? Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be working for us and it leaves us horribly exposed on the flanks.
https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/4-2-2-2 ... ellegrini/
Interesting write up MOT for those of us who enjoy the coaching/tactical thinking within the game.

Worrying thing for today of course is that it uses Ralf Rangnick's Man Utd as an example and Brighton have just beaten them 4-0.

Although it's not that easy to see our exact formation but feel ours isn't the 4-2-2-2 but more 4-2-1-3.
However our wingers are still playing narrow taking up starting positions 10 to 16yds in from the touchline when our defence has possession. Result of this is fullbacks also come in to mark them leaving much smaller gaps between the opponents back four.
Result is we never expose any gaps because they are not there, only on the counter is it possible to find space if opponents have committed players forward.
Also our CF as no space to run the channels.

Bielsas system was 4-1-3-1 which at times left us vulnerable to counter attacks down the middle. The current system exposes our wing backs.

In short it is my view that it as NOT improved us defensively the very slight statistical improvement is more to do with JM having the luxury of his CBs & DM available.
As an attacking force we are far worse, we are creating nowhere near enough chances.

From an entertainment view well it is clear for all to see.

Lots of Coaches have their preferred formations but for me a good coach looks at the players available and sets up a formation to suit the strengths in the squad.
For me our squad is suited to 4-2-3-1 with the wingers in the 3 working the touchline with the option of going down the outside or cutting in once receiving the ball. Also helping the FB defensively is the other part of the Job.
Keep your face always toward the sunshine - and shadows will fall behind you.
frogmill0
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Re: Bielsa v Marsch

Post by frogmill0 »

MOT1964 wrote:
frogmill0 wrote:Forgive my tactical ignorance but what's the rationale behind playing it narrow? Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be working for us and it leaves us horribly exposed on the flanks.
https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/4-2-2-2 ... ellegrini/
Many thanks for that and I understand it better now. However, in our case it seems that theory and reality are not the same thing!
Polkadot
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Re: Bielsa v Marsch

Post by Polkadot »

Polkadot wrote:
Polkadot wrote:
The Fonz wrote: How does it look against the same teams if you want to compare.
If we should compare those 9 games with Marsch to the games against the same teams under Bielsa this season we will get:
Marsch 11 points against Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City and Arsenal.
Bielsa 12 points against the same.
Goal difference Marsch 10-14, goal difference Bielsa 10-18.
Bielsa had 5 home games, Marsch 4.

The remaining 3 games against Chelsea, Brighton and Brentford gave us 2 points and 4-5 in goal difference.
Marsch probably need to outscore Bielsa in these three to even hope staying up.

This comparison is not really relevant as it’s such a small number of games, and in football there are so many variables that should be taken into context. But the channel is called Bielsa v Marsch so it’s very much on topic atleast, even if it’s not useful as one is gone and the other is here. No matter how the head-2-head look.
10 games in against the same opposition:
(Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City, Arsenal, Chelsea)

Marsch 11 points, goal difference 10-17
Bielsa 12 points, goal difference 12-21

The remaining two fixtures against Brighton and Brentford gave us 2 points with Bielsa, goal difference 2-2.
11 games in against the same opposition:
(Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Brighton)

Marsch 12 points, goal difference 11-18
Bielsa 13 points, goal difference 12-21

The remaining fixture against Brentford gave us 1 point with Bielsa, goal difference 2-2.

We have to win against Brentford for Marsch to better the points tally against the same teams Bielsa faced. A win is probably also needed to survive. What a week it will be leading up to this match!
The Fonz
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Re: Bielsa v Marsch

Post by The Fonz »

Polkadot wrote:
Polkadot wrote:
Polkadot wrote:
The Fonz wrote: How does it look against the same teams if you want to compare.
If we should compare those 9 games with Marsch to the games against the same teams under Bielsa this season we will get:
Marsch 11 points against Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City and Arsenal.
Bielsa 12 points against the same.
Goal difference Marsch 10-14, goal difference Bielsa 10-18.
Bielsa had 5 home games, Marsch 4.

The remaining 3 games against Chelsea, Brighton and Brentford gave us 2 points and 4-5 in goal difference.
Marsch probably need to outscore Bielsa in these three to even hope staying up.

This comparison is not really relevant as it’s such a small number of games, and in football there are so many variables that should be taken into context. But the channel is called Bielsa v Marsch so it’s very much on topic atleast, even if it’s not useful as one is gone and the other is here. No matter how the head-2-head look.
10 games in against the same opposition:
(Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City, Arsenal, Chelsea)

Marsch 11 points, goal difference 10-17
Bielsa 12 points, goal difference 12-21

The remaining two fixtures against Brighton and Brentford gave us 2 points with Bielsa, goal difference 2-2.
11 games in against the same opposition:
(Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Brighton)

Marsch 12 points, goal difference 11-18
Bielsa 13 points, goal difference 12-21

The remaining fixture against Brentford gave us 1 point with Bielsa, goal difference 2-2.

We have to win against Brentford for Marsch to better the points tally against the same teams Bielsa faced. A win is probably also needed to survive. What a week it will be leading up to this match!
Of course Bielsa got those points without his CBs & Phillips in a few of those games.
For me to justify changing the manager we should have been looking at 4 or 5 more points in those games.
A point either way and nothing has really changed.
Costy
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Re: Bielsa v Marsch

Post by Costy »

I'd argue things have changed. Our football and our attacking threat are considerably worse than they were under Bielsa. We may not have conceded 6 and 7s, but the defeats to City and Chelsea were still comprehensive batterings. We are worse now than we were before.
Gascoigne
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Re: Bielsa v Marsch

Post by Gascoigne »

Impossible to compare them as Leeds managers because Marsch has not had a fair shake.

Also two managers with very different styles and priorities:

Bielsa - academic/technician. Not great at man-management, and lacks English fluency, therefore heavily reliant on able coaches and various assistants who smooth things over with upset players. Very high academic intelligence, but maybe not very socially-aware. Maybe pushes players too hard. Not very adept at the commercial aspects, transfer decisions and what not, so needs to be controlled from above using a director of football-type person, who works in the interests of the Board/owners.

Marsch - good man-manager, good with the media. Good as a club/corporate frontman, communicator and team motivator while others deal with the nitty-gritty. Very high social intelligence and very articulate, excellent 'feel good' factor for players in the dressing room and fans; but not so good when it comes to the technical aspects, therefore heavily reliant on technically-able coaches. With technical people around him, could be an excellent manager. Without them, could be lost in a fog and becomes an articulate bluffer reliant on luck and good fortune.

A lot of people would assume the Bielsa approach is superior, but I'm not sure. Isn't football in large part about psychology and man-management? You could make an argument for the Marsch school of thought. I'm also not suggesting Marsch is completely naive about tactics and other technical matters, just that it's not his forte.

Before arriving at Leeds, Bielsa had a solid record as a South American football manager, but seemed to struggle in Europe. His real contribution to the game was in understanding the game - he's a sort of Houllier/Wenger figure.

Marsch's background is not overly-spectacular. He succeeded in the Austrian league and MLS, but they are not the most competitive in the world. He was quickly sacked by a top German club. But as I note above, he does look and talk the part and can instil confidence, and this does matter as football is about psychology as much as anything. The problem with this type of person is that he needs lots of support on the technical side and if he doesn't receive it and he is also unlucky on the pitch, then - fairly or not - people start to perceive him as fake.
Polkadot
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Re: Bielsa v Marsch

Post by Polkadot »

The Fonz wrote:
Polkadot wrote:
Polkadot wrote:
Polkadot wrote:
The Fonz wrote: How does it look against the same teams if you want to compare.
If we should compare those 9 games with Marsch to the games against the same teams under Bielsa this season we will get:
Marsch 11 points against Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City and Arsenal.
Bielsa 12 points against the same.
Goal difference Marsch 10-14, goal difference Bielsa 10-18.
Bielsa had 5 home games, Marsch 4.

The remaining 3 games against Chelsea, Brighton and Brentford gave us 2 points and 4-5 in goal difference.
Marsch probably need to outscore Bielsa in these three to even hope staying up.

This comparison is not really relevant as it’s such a small number of games, and in football there are so many variables that should be taken into context. But the channel is called Bielsa v Marsch so it’s very much on topic atleast, even if it’s not useful as one is gone and the other is here. No matter how the head-2-head look.
10 games in against the same opposition:
(Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City, Arsenal, Chelsea)

Marsch 11 points, goal difference 10-17
Bielsa 12 points, goal difference 12-21

The remaining two fixtures against Brighton and Brentford gave us 2 points with Bielsa, goal difference 2-2.
11 games in against the same opposition:
(Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Brighton)

Marsch 12 points, goal difference 11-18
Bielsa 13 points, goal difference 12-21

The remaining fixture against Brentford gave us 1 point with Bielsa, goal difference 2-2.

We have to win against Brentford for Marsch to better the points tally against the same teams Bielsa faced. A win is probably also needed to survive. What a week it will be leading up to this match!
Of course Bielsa got those points without his CBs & Phillips in a few of those games.
For me to justify changing the manager we should have been looking at 4 or 5 more points in those games.
A point either way and nothing has really changed.
I had to check this out, and it surprised me a lot.

The 3 games of these 11 that we won under Bielsa (Watford, Norwich, Palace) we had Phillips, Cooper and Llorente starting. Same with the draws against Brighton and Leicester. Draw against Wolves was with Cooper and Llorente, but without Phillips.
So in direct comparison between the games against the same team “lack of CBs and Phillips” is not a valid argument.
gilesdriveby
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Re: Bielsa v Marsch

Post by gilesdriveby »

I think that our problems are more complex than which is or was the better Bielsa or Marsch.

I loved Bielsa what he brought to Leeds the style of football his personality and the way he increased Leeds reputation with other supporters. That’s not including getting us to play offs getting promoted getting us to amid table in the first season. His sacking was like waking up to news that your favourite person/ hero had passed on.

With apologies to Barlow boy I think that there were issues with this year. I think training or playing at the intensity required impacted on the players more than previous seasons particularly with our small squad and when our injuries crisis hit.

Both managers have been really unlucky with injuries or suspensions to key players, cooper Phillips bamford dallas Forshaw etc. we lost leaders in the dressing room Pablo gaetano and Alioski and I don’t think that they were replaced. I am not sure whether it was the board or Bielsa who was not in favour of getting more players in and /or additional midfielders or a striker. Most of the posters on this and other forums have always felt that Roberts was not an adequate replacement for Bamford. And I am also not sure whether the board or Bielsa vetoed extra players coming in January.

I also think that Bielsa had made a deal with Radz and was less suited to the corporate relationship with the American owners. Marsch is more their type of guy.

Things are also not perfect at U23 level. Drameh wanted out as did Summerville and Casey Caprile left at the start of the season. I am not sure our young players see a path to first team football.

However there are also major questions with the board. I think they gambled both at the start of the season and in January that Bielsa would work his magic and keep the side up. So they could delay the investment until the new manager was appointed when Bielsa left at the end of the season. It was a calculated gamble as was sacking Bielsa and the gambles have not worked.

In relation to Marsch the jury is out. He is intelligent a good communicator and very slick. He has limited time to put in place his system and has done with a weakened team and whose morale seemed low. He also hasn’t had time to bring in his own players. That said the discipline or tactics do not seem to be there and I’m not convinced he will be as respected or loved as Marcelo.

If we go down we can argue whether where the greatest part of the blame should go but it does seem like this is not a place I would have predicted or hoped when we kicked off at the start of the season.

Sorry for the long post or rant
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Selby White
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Re: Bielsa v Marsch

Post by Selby White »

Polkadot wrote:
The Fonz wrote:
Polkadot wrote:
Polkadot wrote:
Polkadot wrote:
The Fonz wrote: How does it look against the same teams if you want to compare.
If we should compare those 9 games with Marsch to the games against the same teams under Bielsa this season we will get:
Marsch 11 points against Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City and Arsenal.
Bielsa 12 points against the same.
Goal difference Marsch 10-14, goal difference Bielsa 10-18.
Bielsa had 5 home games, Marsch 4.

The remaining 3 games against Chelsea, Brighton and Brentford gave us 2 points and 4-5 in goal difference.
Marsch probably need to outscore Bielsa in these three to even hope staying up.

This comparison is not really relevant as it’s such a small number of games, and in football there are so many variables that should be taken into context. But the channel is called Bielsa v Marsch so it’s very much on topic atleast, even if it’s not useful as one is gone and the other is here. No matter how the head-2-head look.
10 games in against the same opposition:
(Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City, Arsenal, Chelsea)

Marsch 11 points, goal difference 10-17
Bielsa 12 points, goal difference 12-21

The remaining two fixtures against Brighton and Brentford gave us 2 points with Bielsa, goal difference 2-2.
11 games in against the same opposition:
(Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Southampton, Watford, Palace, City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Brighton)

Marsch 12 points, goal difference 11-18
Bielsa 13 points, goal difference 12-21

The remaining fixture against Brentford gave us 1 point with Bielsa, goal difference 2-2.

We have to win against Brentford for Marsch to better the points tally against the same teams Bielsa faced. A win is probably also needed to survive. What a week it will be leading up to this match!
Of course Bielsa got those points without his CBs & Phillips in a few of those games.
For me to justify changing the manager we should have been looking at 4 or 5 more points in those games.
A point either way and nothing has really changed.
I had to check this out, and it surprised me a lot.

The 3 games of these 11 that we won under Bielsa (Watford, Norwich, Palace) we had Phillips, Cooper and Llorente starting. Same with the draws against Brighton and Leicester. Draw against Wolves was with Cooper and Llorente, but without Phillips.
So in direct comparison between the games against the same team “lack of CBs and Phillips” is not a valid argument.
Polka,
Doesn't that only prove that MB got results with those players playing.
Look at our defence in the games we lost in those 11 for the most part think you may find we were very short at the back.
That is how I recall it.
Keep your face always toward the sunshine - and shadows will fall behind you.
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