Should we keep Marsch if relegated? (Poll)

[DominanceUK]

Let's just see what happens tomorrow.

[The last Waltz]

Firstly - Anyone would’ve struggled following Bielsa. Regardless of ones views as regards about abilities, he clearly drilled his squad to a degree where they were more or less playing from memory. It was therefore was utter stupidity in my view to replacing mid-season, a full preseason was the minimum required in order to get his tactics out of the players heads and impress on them the new managers methods. From that perspective Marsch has clearly not had a fair crack of the whip.

Unfortunately though you only get one chance to make a first impression in football management generally hit the ground running or you’re out. It’s difficult to turn around a losing mentality, when you’ve been part of it. For that reason alone I would prefer an alternative manager is appointed as soon as the season ends.

Secondly I don’t particularly like a style of football; this narrow formation doesn’t appear to offer any hope of entertaining football. He appears to have taken very good round pegs and started putting them in square holes. (Raphinha playing at wingback and Phillips playing less of a holding role and more as an 8). He also has a tendency like many of todays managers to want to get noticed on the pitch - playing up to the fans. That’s not for me - He should take a look at how humble Bielsa was.

[Selby White]

Good post TLW

It was therefore was utter stupidity in my view to replacing mid-season.

Agree 100%

From that perspective Marsch has clearly not had a fair crack of the whip.

Can't argue with that although he knew the situation, given his time again I do wonder if he would take the job.

Unfortunately though you only get one chance to make a first impression in football management.

True and great shame, in MB's time here it was clear to me that a lot of emphasis was on building the club from the bottom up. Signing some fantastic young talent to create a conveyor belt system. We are just starting to reap the rewards but suspect it'll be the next man after JM that really gets the benefit.
Today's fans are impatient and play too much FM for my liking, buy this, buy that rather than how we should teach and coach.
I see a fair proportion of the fan bases of clubs like Man City and Salford Red Socks as prime examples of the "if it doesn't work buy someone else's best player" brigade. Hate them for that attitude as much as I dislike cheats.
We have a few as all clubs do but for me sport is about competing not winning because you have most money.

I don’t particularly like a style of football; this narrow formation doesn’t appear to offer any hope of entertaining football.

Entertainment we've been honoured could be a long time before we see anything like it again.

He appears to have taken very good round pegs and started putting them in square holes. (Raphinha playing at wingback and Phillips playing less of a holding role and more as an 8).

He's got to stand or hang by how he sees it rather than what we think.

He also has a tendency like many of todays managers to want to get noticed on the pitch - playing up to the fans. That’s not for me - He should take a look at how humble Bielsa was.

Not for me either.

[mshnd06]

Let me preface this by mentioning that I'm a yank and, as such, have an entirely justified footballing inferiority complex. It is not an exaggeration to say that virtually all serious football supporters in this country are closely watching the goings on of our club. We desperately want international validation on the team, player and manager fronts. While we can hardly boast success on the former two counts, the latter is an even more desolate wasteland. Consequently, we've been sold Jesse Marsch as the great hope for an American breakthrough on the European managing scene.

I've never had affection for a sporting manager greater than that I felt for Marcelo. I enjoyed watching his Argentine and Chilean sides and deeply respected his work at Bilbao, perhaps the most restrictive recruiting environment of any high-level sport club in the world. The warmth with which he is described by his former charges, proteges, and philosophical descendants is very telling. I was genuinely excited when he was appointed and my opinion of him has only grown since. I wasn't around for Revie, but I've followed for nearly thirty years and I will now always view the club through the idealistic lens of the Bielsa era. He was the manager our club deserved. Not only the results, but the character on the pitch, the devotion of his players, his connection to the Leeds community (I've only read the stories but they remain impactful when consumed a world away), the character off the pitch, and his footballing joie de vivre. I was crushed and appalled when he was sacked.

The appointment of Marsch left me very conflicted. The Bielsa sacking wounds were still tender and optimism felt both difficult and wrong. The desperate USA fan, fed on the Marsch as an intrepid football hero narrative, was enthusiastic. I didn't want someone else to save our season. I wanted Marsch to succeed to soothe my fragile, American, football supporter ego. I wanted to stay up. I feared that Marsch would fail and provide further fodder for USA football dismissal.

I believe that I am getting closer to setting aside all that baggage and am ready to attempt to analyze as objectively as I can. First let me say, CheeznOnionPasty already articulated all the arguments regarding sample size and the difficulty of the task better than I could ever hope to. I'll therefore skip all of that and move to my takes on Marsch, tactically and strategically. In addition to Leeds, I follow Major League Soccer. Marsch managed the New York Red Bulls to one of the finest seasons I have seen in that league with largely unheralded talent, narrow formation, unrelenting press and players willing and able to run through a wall for him. The extreme level of commitment and fitness, youth development and team ethos made me think this might be a logical successor to our beloved "Loco." That said, I am fully aware that, despite very real growth, the MLS is somewhere in the 16-25 range of in the hierarchy of domestic football leagues and success there comes with a grain of salt. Marsch's success in Salzburg is typically considered to be a success with domestic titles and cups, continental participation and attractive soccer. I would like to challenge this a bit. Salzburg's transfer outlay and wage bill considerably outstrips those of its domestic competitors. I believe Salzburg were occasional spoilers but never managed a real run in Europe during his tenure. I assess this as a relatively easy gig in which he performed at expectations, nothing more. Leipzig, briefly, was next and demonstrated what I believe to be tactical inflexibility. I believe that a mark of a truly great manager is the ability to transition to your vision while working within the personnel and their training as established by your predecessor. Someone earlier mentioned square pegs and round holes. In my completely amateur opinion the Leipzig tenure went of the rails because of excessive dogmatism, which I believe led to dissonance between players and manager, tactically and perhaps, interpersonally (I have nothing to back that last part up). Now to our beloved club. Ordinarily, I'd be one to give Marsch the benefit of the doubt. Give him a preseason and a summer window, as many have said. I am worried about what I see, however. It's redolent of Leipzig. We're in a relegation scrap - a time for pragmatism, compromise, flexibility to find what works. Why the religious devotion to narrowness and pressing that clearly isn't working? Why relocate your most talented played to an unfamiliar role in which he is likely to be far less influential (I'm ok with trying stupid stuff, just not the commitment to ineffective stupid stuff). And what is the on-pitch body language and level of play of our best players telling us? Please note that I am not questioning the conscious commitment levels of our players. It just seems like there is a disconnect between management and players, maybe subconscious, and this whole affair is weighing on them. I'll grant you a lot of this is speculative and soft.

I want Marsch to succeed, for the sake of Leeds and to advance the cause of American management beyond sitcoms. I also don't think he is a very good fit here/may need more seasoning elsewhere to moderate some of his tactical willfulness.

Just my long-winded, rambling, non-sensical two cents

[CheeznOnionPasty]

Some awesome debate in this thread, good posts TLW, SW and mshnd06.

From that perspective Marsch has clearly not had a fair crack of the whip.

Can't argue with that although he knew the situation, given his time again I do wonder if he would take the job.

In the long run, when we look back and analyse this period that might be perhaps part of the most interesting question - was it really the man (Marsch) that was wrong for the job or was it the timing of his appointment that set him up for failure.

Hindsight is 20:20 but looking back now, it certainly seems like it might have been smarter to stick with Marcelo to the end of the season, and then transition in the summer, giving Marsch a fresh start, a full preseason and a recruitment window.

In my completely amateur opinion the Leipzig tenure went of the rails because of excessive dogmatism

Will be somewhat ironic if what killed Marcelo's tenure was largely dogmatic and religious devotion to a system that wasn't working and then we appoint another manager who fails for the same reason but a different set of beliefs. Only Leeds.

[Ricardo Da Lepp]

This is a difficult one.
If we are relegated, then the board's decision to remove Marcelo will have been shown to be an ignominious failure.

The entire club, at all levels, has been specifically set-up to Marcelo's designs, and relied on having him at the centre of it all. As such, due to the specific and unusual way the club is organized, it was not really a viable change to try to make, as no-one could realistically come in and change things mid-season. Not positively anyway.
Therefore, can anyone really claim that Jesse Marsch has had a fair hearing yet? He hasn't had a pre-season to address anything at all. He took over a situation of some chaos, and one which in my opinion, could only be rectified by Marcelo Bielsa himself. If Marsch is kicked out, then it's really just another Heckingbottom scenario.

On this basis, out of fairness to Jesse Marsch, I don't feel it would be reasonable to sack him if we are relegated.

However, the question then arises as to whether anyone else would be likely to do a better job, with the club in the position it is in.

Arguably, the only manager who knows the squad and the system better than Jesse Marsch, is Carlos Corberan. If Huddersfield are successful in the play-offs, then of course he wouldn't leave them to join us. If they fail, then I think it unlikely that he would want to leave "his" project unfinished to return to us, but it might be possible, depending on how Huddersfield respond to the situation.

So, if we go down, and Corberan becomes available, then he would be my preferred manager, although it would be a bit rough on Marsch.

If Corberan isn't available, I think we have to stick with Marsch, who has - to his credit - shown a willingness to be flexible in his formations in the last couple of games. Mainly out of fairness to the guy, but also because there isn't anyone else (other than Corberan) who really springs to mind as being a likely improvement.

[Ricardo Da Lepp]

Let me preface this by mentioning that I'm a yank and, as such, have an entirely justified footballing inferiority complex. It is not an exaggeration to say that virtually all serious football supporters in this country are closely watching the goings on of our club. We desperately want international validation on the team, player and manager fronts. While we can hardly boast success on the former two counts, the latter is an even more desolate wasteland. Consequently, we've been sold Jesse Marsch as the great hope for an American breakthrough on the European managing scene.

I've never had affection for a sporting manager greater than that I felt for Marcelo. I enjoyed watching his Argentine and Chilean sides and deeply respected his work at Bilbao, perhaps the most restrictive recruiting environment of any high-level sport club in the world. The warmth with which he is described by his former charges, proteges, and philosophical descendants is very telling. I was genuinely excited when he was appointed and my opinion of him has only grown since. I wasn't around for Revie, but I've followed for nearly thirty years and I will now always view the club through the idealistic lens of the Bielsa era. He was the manager our club deserved. Not only the results, but the character on the pitch, the devotion of his players, his connection to the Leeds community (I've only read the stories but they remain impactful when consumed a world away), the character off the pitch, and his footballing joie de vivre. I was crushed and appalled when he was sacked.

The appointment of Marsch left me very conflicted. The Bielsa sacking wounds were still tender and optimism felt both difficult and wrong. The desperate USA fan, fed on the Marsch as an intrepid football hero narrative, was enthusiastic. I didn't want someone else to save our season. I wanted Marsch to succeed to soothe my fragile, American, football supporter ego. I wanted to stay up. I feared that Marsch would fail and provide further fodder for USA football dismissal.

I believe that I am getting closer to setting aside all that baggage and am ready to attempt to analyze as objectively as I can. First let me say, CheeznOnionPasty already articulated all the arguments regarding sample size and the difficulty of the task better than I could ever hope to. I'll therefore skip all of that and move to my takes on Marsch, tactically and strategically. In addition to Leeds, I follow Major League Soccer. Marsch managed the New York Red Bulls to one of the finest seasons I have seen in that league with largely unheralded talent, narrow formation, unrelenting press and players willing and able to run through a wall for him. The extreme level of commitment and fitness, youth development and team ethos made me think this might be a logical successor to our beloved "Loco." That said, I am fully aware that, despite very real growth, the MLS is somewhere in the 16-25 range of in the hierarchy of domestic football leagues and success there comes with a grain of salt. Marsch's success in Salzburg is typically considered to be a success with domestic titles and cups, continental participation and attractive soccer. I would like to challenge this a bit. Salzburg's transfer outlay and wage bill considerably outstrips those of its domestic competitors. I believe Salzburg were occasional spoilers but never managed a real run in Europe during his tenure. I assess this as a relatively easy gig in which he performed at expectations, nothing more. Leipzig, briefly, was next and demonstrated what I believe to be tactical inflexibility. I believe that a mark of a truly great manager is the ability to transition to your vision while working within the personnel and their training as established by your predecessor. Someone earlier mentioned square pegs and round holes. In my completely amateur opinion the Leipzig tenure went of the rails because of excessive dogmatism, which I believe led to dissonance between players and manager, tactically and perhaps, interpersonally (I have nothing to back that last part up). Now to our beloved club. Ordinarily, I'd be one to give Marsch the benefit of the doubt. Give him a preseason and a summer window, as many have said. I am worried about what I see, however. It's redolent of Leipzig. We're in a relegation scrap - a time for pragmatism, compromise, flexibility to find what works. Why the religious devotion to narrowness and pressing that clearly isn't working? Why relocate your most talented played to an unfamiliar role in which he is likely to be far less influential (I'm ok with trying stupid stuff, just not the commitment to ineffective stupid stuff). And what is the on-pitch body language and level of play of our best players telling us? Please note that I am not questioning the conscious commitment levels of our players. It just seems like there is a disconnect between management and players, maybe subconscious, and this whole affair is weighing on them. I'll grant you a lot of this is speculative and soft.

I want Marsch to succeed, for the sake of Leeds and to advance the cause of American management beyond sitcoms. I also don't think he is a very good fit here/may need more seasoning elsewhere to moderate some of his tactical willfulness.

Just my long-winded, rambling, non-sensical two cents

Thanks for posting this.
That was very interesting to hear the view from the USA. Also nice to hear some of the background to Marsch and perspective on his previous managerial positions.

I can see he has adapted things recently and hopefully he is learning.
If he leaves, then I have a feeling he will do well somewhere else, which won't reflect well on his time here.

[Barlow Boy]

Just out of interest, from our two polls, 71% thought it wrong to sack Bielsa, 67% want Marsch to go.

[Polkadot]

Give him a preseason and a summer window, as many have said. I am worried about what I see, however. It's redolent of Leipzig. We're in a relegation scrap - a time for pragmatism, compromise, flexibility to find what works. Why the religious devotion to narrowness and pressing that clearly isn't working?

First of all, Thanks for a Great post, was a pleasure to read it.

However, I found this part interesting.
I think Marsch has been very pragmatic and flexible under his short spell. He’s tried different formations, a lot of different players. Also the narrowness has been challenged, for example against Brighton last weekend we played pretty narrow with both Harrison and Raphinha far out by the line for most of the game.
If he had played the same 11 in the same setup every week I would understand this part of the post too.

[Costy]

While I think there are some really good, well thought out and well written posts here, for me the matter is being over complicated. Under Marcelo this season we were nowhere near as good as last season because for a large chunk of it a big clutch of very important players were missing. If they had been available, we would almost certainly be several places higher than we are now and would be safe. You can't be the best team you can be if several important players are missing, especially when you come up against the best the Premier league has to offer. It's that simple. Whether the lack of squad depth was down to Bielsa's preference or not I don't know, but Marsch wouldn't even be here but for those injuries and to be honest shouldn't be here anyway, because Marcelo should never have been sacked. I'm still horrified that the club did that and to be honest I don't think that feeling will ever go away.

Finally, in my view there is another inescapable conclusion to be drawn since Marsch took over - we now look absolutely rubbish every time we play. That doesn't bode too well for next season if he does stay.