A warning for those about to pop out to the book shop: "Europe" is not a light read. It is very, very good, but with over 1300 pages, numerous notes and appendices you won't finish it in one sitting. Likewise "The Isles" by the same author. :ugeek:Tourist wrote:That is very true. I don't want to mess in this thread too much I will only recommend "Europe" by Norman Davies. Professor at University of London, speaks Polish fluently.johnh wrote:Rigger, in 1939 there were a lot of people who were of the opinion 'let Hitler have Europe and leave us alone'. Fortunately, Churchill was there and that is why we don't speak German today. Germany still run Europe however but the only reason we don't speak German is that the French want 'French' to be the official language of the EU. This is probably the most likely cause of another war in Europe.
Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added
Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added
Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added
This one I think, Rigger.
I am a picture-uploading monster
I am a picture-uploading monster
Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added
Now this is amazing that you are reading Davies just now Classic!rigger wrote:Do you mean this book ??Tourist wrote:That is very true. I don't want to mess in this thread too much I will only recommend "Europe" by Norman Davies. Professor at University of London, speaks Polish fluently.johnh wrote:Rigger, in 1939 there were a lot of people who were of the opinion 'let Hitler have Europe and leave us alone'. Fortunately, Churchill was there and that is why we don't speak German today. Germany still run Europe however but the only reason we don't speak German is that the French want 'French' to be the official language of the EU. This is probably the most likely cause of another war in Europe.
Weirdly enough, I'm halfway through it !
A staggering read.
The western front was schoolyard handbags compared to the real war between Germany and the eastern European nations
I was rather thinking about "Europe: A history" by him, simply due to the fact that he's got an anglo-saxon mind but understands the Eastern European problems which is not always the case . And his work shows the complexity of affairs between European nations and the constant quest for supremacy which thankfully stopped, IMHO thanks to the EU.
Try "Rising '44. The battle of Warsaw." - it's an incredible story.
As for the xenophobic thing - I know what you're talking about but I believe that there is an explanation for everything - there will always be a part of society feeling endangered by a group of people wanting to take their place/workplace. If they're from a different country then it falls under the xenophobic category but this negative approach is just a consequence of fear. Simply speaking, I would be very suprised if the working class of GB welcomed cheap labour force from anywhere I have never experienced any form of abuse while being in the UK, but then again, I came, I conquered, I left
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Exactly sir!Sniffer wrote:This one I think, Rigger.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=eu ... ajaxhist=0
I can never get pictures on here. Sorry.
Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added
To quote: 'In 1992 PFI was implemented for the first time in the UK by the Conservative government of John Major.' I agree the referendum is ostensibly nothing to do with party politics (& Labour certainly need to take a long hard look at themselves) but I suggest party politics is playing a huge part. The point about the Labour Party getting their vote out is simply that their 'voters' are allegedly more likely to vote remain and sadly more likely to remain at home on polling day. Corbyn needs to sort this as a priority (or not for folk who prefer BREXIT).johnh wrote:I agree that Mellor's post was well thought out and raised some good points. However, he did his case no favours by turning the post into a party political broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party. The referendum has nothing to do with party politics, the vote is solely on whether we want to stay in or leave the EU.
PS PFI was solely the brainchild of Gordon Brown, Labour Chancellor.
One thing I meant to say, the genie is out of the bottle. UKIP major on putting it back, so too BREXIT. Truth is you can't. I also forgot to say that if folk judge the merits of in v out simply on the premise that what money you put in has to come out in equal measure or better we're doomed. Like progressive taxation the 'haves' should contribute more than the 'have not's'. The whole being better than the sum of the individual parts. BREXIT play to the selfishness in all of us I think. Their figures - quoted by Gove in his interview with Faisal at the weekend - (£8 billion to spend on the NHS) have just been rubbished by the IFS who point out that Gove misquoted their analysis. All BREXIT figures seem to end up on the cutting room floor - despite not being in Govt they have promised to spend about 10 times what they claim we'll save and what they claim we'll save is disputed.
Every time I take a dip in the sea I praise the EU. Pre EU we used to swim in effluent. Next challenge global warming - again, better together for me
When I was young I said to my mum, 'are the hills in the distance America?'
attacco decente
attacco decente
Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added
Ah indeed I have and it really is a lesser of two evils with regards to those that deem to rule. At the end of the day, I prefer to be a part of a larger entity. The idea of us going it alone is a little bit crazy, as the world has changed so much since we joined. For a start we don't own the majority of our industries and key utilities and services are also foreign owned, many of those owners being from the EC. What exactly do we have to work with on our own!?johnh wrote:Frankie mentions the 'seriously dubious characters' backing Brexit. Has she ever taken time to look at the even more seriously dubious characters who reside in Brussels?
Also it is merely a fantasy to think that any money saved will actually go back into our infrasturcture or the pockets o fthe working people, it will all just disappear to the same places so much of our money already goes to!
Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added
Would that include those that don't pay their taxes too and those that steal from their employee's pension funds to buy yachts?Get rid of those who take advantage of you
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Frankie, at least we would vote for those who deem to rule under Brexit.Frankie wrote:Ah indeed I have and it really is a lesser of two evils with regards to those that deem to rule. At the end of the day, I prefer to be a part of a larger entity. The idea of us going it alone is a little bit crazy, as the world has changed so much since we joined. For a start we don't own the majority of our industries and key utilities and services are also foreign owned, many of those owners being from the EC. What exactly do we have to work with on our own!?johnh wrote:Frankie mentions the 'seriously dubious characters' backing Brexit. Has she ever taken time to look at the even more seriously dubious characters who reside in Brussels?
Also it is merely a fantasy to think that any money saved will actually go back into our infrasturcture or the pockets o fthe working people, it will all just disappear to the same places so much of our money already goes to!
I once played against Don Revie.
Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added
I hear what you are saying, but that won't happen until we have a truly representative voting system, which we do not have at the moment!johnh wrote:Frankie, at least we would vote for those who deem to rule under Brexit.Frankie wrote:Ah indeed I have and it really is a lesser of two evils with regards to those that deem to rule. At the end of the day, I prefer to be a part of a larger entity. The idea of us going it alone is a little bit crazy, as the world has changed so much since we joined. For a start we don't own the majority of our industries and key utilities and services are also foreign owned, many of those owners being from the EC. What exactly do we have to work with on our own!?johnh wrote:Frankie mentions the 'seriously dubious characters' backing Brexit. Has she ever taken time to look at the even more seriously dubious characters who reside in Brussels?
Also it is merely a fantasy to think that any money saved will actually go back into our infrasturcture or the pockets o fthe working people, it will all just disappear to the same places so much of our money already goes to!
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Re: Brexit - Yes or No? - Poll added
With regards to Frankie's point, proportional representstion is the fairest electoral system, much more than the first past the post system. However, more often than not it will lead to coalition governments. This can may to more unstable governments, but the consensus arrangement tends to curb the excesses of any one party and this is usually a good thing.
The concern with this referendum is that it may be used by some of the electorate as a chance to give the incumbent government a kicking by voting against their position, in this case "remain". The key issue at stake may be lost in the urge to avail of this opportunity.
The concern with this referendum is that it may be used by some of the electorate as a chance to give the incumbent government a kicking by voting against their position, in this case "remain". The key issue at stake may be lost in the urge to avail of this opportunity.