Coronavirus

[zigzag]

Interesting debate (although very one sided) and Im surprised at the numbers of people who are blindly going along to get vaccinated, fair enough if you are elderly or vulnerable but for those who are not I am surprised by the numbers who are not questioning the mass vaccination programme, why it is needed for all, where is this heading (IMO a vacciantion passport has been the end game since day 1), why vaccinate those who have had covid and have antibodies (the overwhelming majority of those who catch it survive it), are people aware the vaccines are still in trial phases and will be until end of 2022 they have merely been authorised for emergency use but have not been fully licenced and the vaccine companies have been given immunity from prosecution should things go wrong. So many questions are not being asked and those that are asked are being dismissed by Governemnt without proper answers, just merely labelling opposing scientists heretics, those who dont trust the vaccinations at this stage as selfish anti-vaxers.

What goes into our bodies is our own choice, always has been, there have been other serious viruses but the world hasnt co-erced a mass vaccination programme on the population before, but this is happening right now without proper debate.

If you believe Government statistics (and given their record over the last 12mths on data manipulation there are plenty who dont) then around 99% of the vulnerable and elderly have now been vaccinated.

So why not pause the vaccination programme here and have a reasoned debate about
1) the long term safety of the vaccines, people arent worried about a prick in the arm its whats in that prick that is causing consternation, this is not anti-vax although the governement is doing its best to label it as such,
2) when the trial period will be over, because we are still in the trail period - the vaccines have been authorised for emergency use they havent been given the all clear, and Macron has said that the UK has rushed into its vaccine roll out, Switzerland has said it wil not put its population through a medical experiement as some examples of urging caution
3) just what is an MRNA vaccine (is it as some say gene therapy, why have MRNA vaccines never been authorised before now)
4) why vaccines are required for all - Gvt stats show over 4million have had covid and recovered, these people have antibodies so why do they need a vaccine
5) get a balanced mediacal opinion on
a) what are my chances of getting covid
b) what are my chances of being ill/hospitalised/death given my age, health, comorbidities
6) is this a one off vaccine or will it be an annual one (they havent built those lighthouse labs for nothing)
7) why are they advocating masks/social distancing after vaccination, if the masks work why vaccinate, or if the vaccine works why the masks
8) talk about why the Governemnt through Ofcom effectively gagged the media into only reporting the Government narrative
9) talk about why the virus seems to be most prevalent in western democracies, why hasnt the the virus to quote Mr Pink tie Hancock 'ripped through' refugee camps or 3rd world shanty towns for example where people live on top of each other in the most primitive conditions with little/no access to basic services let alone healthcare
10) new strains, all viruses mutate (its why there isnt a cure for the common cold) yet the Government and media are hyping up each new covid strain as if its never happened before, it has, it always will
11) what the end game is, vaccine passports, mass testing on a weekly basis, what?

In a time of crisis a Government would seek to minimise fear & urge calmness (Keep Calm & Carry On), in the last year our Governemnt as done precisely the opposite, it has deliberatley scared people, death figures have been manipulated (with covid, not from covid, within 28 days of a test), PCR test cycles run at too high a rate so showing a very high number of false postive results, the building of the nightingale hospitals and tempaoray morgues in aircraft hangars, all designed to scare people to believing covid is more deadly that it is for the vast majority (ie healthy under 65/70 no co-morbidities).

Of course no pause for review and debate will happend, to do so the Government would have to acknowledge that it should have protected the elderly/vulnerable from the start whilst allowing the rest of the population to assess its own risk (live with elderly/vulnerable parents take more care, single healthy 25 yrs not at great risk) and the majority of them to carry on as normal.

I think vaccine passports are coming, which is essentially a way of co-ercion to take the vaccine (no vaccine = no cinema, holiday, or Elland Road) with no assessment of whether you really need the vaccine, its a vacciantion for all programme with no questions allowed to be asked, no debate or concerns allowed. We are facing a fundamental change to our lives and way of life, it is being ushered in by the backdoor by a Government who would have been unelectable with such things as manifesto promises, but who have by stifling debate, throwing an advertising budget at Covid, together with a tame/handcuffed media who shove a daily death count at us only for Covid and without any context, scared a large number of people into believing that Covid is the kiss of death and who will now go along with anything without question, with no reasoned debate of both sides of the argument.

[NottinghamWhite]

Not a dig at teachers at all my wife is a retired Primary Head. Just this particular couple have spouted about what they are going through on a work basis but at every given opportunity they’ve had house guests & regular daily visitors, hypocrisy at its best. No offence aimed at Costy or others continuing their daily work, I personally applaud you, it’s just 2 individuals I’m referring to.
Take care & stay safe.

[Selby White]

Interesting debate (although very one sided)

One sided here actually mirrors the population I would think given the numbers having the Vaccination.

Im surprised at the numbers of people who are blindly going along to get vaccinated, fair enough if you are elderly or vulnerable but for those who are not I am surprised by the numbers who are not questioning the mass vaccination programme, why it is needed for all,

I'm not surprised as a to a lot of people its names not numbers now.

where is this heading (IMO a vacciantion passport has been the end game since day 1),

Not a issue to me, if I sit next to someone in a restaurant or have tradesmen working in my home I will be far happier in the knowledge they have been vaccinated.
It basically happens already if you visit certain countries you need a vaccination for things like Yellow Fever and others.

why vaccinate those who have had covid and have antibodies (the overwhelming majority of those who catch it survive it),

The death rate in this country rose by 14% (by 85,000) in 2020 so we are told, the actual biggest increase since World War Two. I actually counted the new graves at the local cemetery and we have a 11% increase but are not a high infection area. Still far too many IMHO.

are people aware the vaccines are still in trial phases and will be until end of 2022 they have merely been authorised for emergency use but have not been fully licenced and the vaccine companies have been given immunity from prosecution should things go wrong.

They have actually been approved
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55586410

those who dont trust the vaccinations at this stage as selfish anti-vaxers.

How else should they be described, that is not a criticism of them just the same as I woud be happy to be called a Pro-Vaxer.

What goes into our bodies is our own choice, always has been,

Not true, I got a few vaccinations as a child i never had a say in.

there have been other serious viruses but the world hasnt co-erced a mass vaccination programme on the population before, but this is happening right now without proper debate.

None that have killed as many as this on a world wide scale.
Well not since the technology to develop vaccines was available.

If you believe Government statistics (and given their record over the last 12mths on data manipulation there are plenty who dont) then around 99% of the vulnerable and elderly have now been vaccinated.

Unless you can show other statistics that prove them wrong its what we have to go on.
That and the fact its not just one political party, its the vast majority of countries all agreeing, many who history tells us never do.

So why not pause the vaccination programme here and have a reasoned debate about

If you are happy with more & more people suffering not only of covid but others with cancelled ops because our ICU facilities are full with Covid patients. Not to mention all the businesses closed to help stop the spread (actually the figures show the lockdown has slowed it, would have been quicker but for those abusing it in my opinion.


1) the long term safety of the vaccines, people arent worried about a prick in the arm its whats in that prick that is causing consternation, this is not anti-vax although the governement is doing its best to label it as such, - A calculated risk, dangers that you die of covid or the Vaccination, one of the two is a proven killer

2) when the trial period will be over, because we are still in the trail period - the vaccines have been authorised for emergency use they havent been given the all clear, and Macron has said that the UK has rushed into its vaccine roll out, Switzerland has said it wil not put its population through a medical experiment as some examples of urging caution - Switzerland does not have the density of population we have, higher density = higher chance of spread. I'm sure many countries will do things different that is their option, time will tell of course.

3) just what is an MRNA vaccine (is it as some say gene therapy, why have MRNA vaccines never been authorised before now)
If you are talking about the Moderna vaccine, its development was later than the others, there will be more developed I believe a 4th one is imminent

4) why vaccines are required for all - Gvt stats show over 4million have had covid and recovered, these people have antibodies so why do they need a vaccine
Suppose if you think the number of deaths are acceptable, I don't

5) get a balanced mediacal opinion on - Will always get some experts disagreeing and having their 15 mins of fame, I'll stick with what the vast majority say

a) what are my chances of getting covid - high if you have followed what happened to the R rate when lockdown was lifted.

b) what are my chances of being ill/hospitalised/death given my age, health, comorbidities - Its never been hidden that it effects more the elderly but that could change. It does still kill younger people or in some cases leaving those that have had it with long term young damage, I personally know a 45 year old that this has happened to.

6) is this a one off vaccine or will it be an annual one (they havent built those lighthouse labs for nothing) - Think its been said it could be ongoing with different strains developing, like we do with Flu

7) why are they advocating masks/social distancing after vaccination, if the masks work why vaccinate, or if the vaccine works why the masks
I have a lock on my door but also have a burglar alarm, better to be over safe

8) talk about why the Governemnt through Ofcom effectively gagged the media into only reporting the Government narrative
First of this, is there proof, is it all the worlds governments

9) talk about why the virus seems to be most prevalent in western democracies, why hasnt the the virus to quote Mr Pink tie Hancock 'ripped through' refugee camps or 3rd world shanty towns for example where people live on top of each other in the most primitive conditions with little/no access to basic services let alone healthcare
Not sure where you get your facts on this, I see figures from numerous poor countries that look high and others who don't but do they test for covid? or even have death certificates in these paces ?

10) new strains, all viruses mutate (its why there isnt a cure for the common cold) yet the Government and media are hyping up each new covid strain as if its never happened before, it has, it always will - a cold works different to a virus, Flu is the same and its tweaks to vaccines

11) what the end game is, vaccine passports, mass testing on a weekly basis, what? - If that what it takes to save lives why not ?

[Deleted User 728]

I've had my first jab and I looked into the vaccines before doing so and as SW said above, they have been cleared by the UK govt.
If they hadn't, or if one hadn't, then I would've questioned it all, checking which one I would be receiving, but I felt safe enough having it done so I went ahead with it.

zigzag, what's the source for your reasoning that they haven't been approved properly ?

Genuine question.
Please answer.

[zigzag]

I've had my first jab and I looked into the vaccines before doing so and as SW said above, they have been cleared by the UK govt.
If they hadn't, or if one hadn't, then I would've questioned it all, checking which one I would be receiving, but I felt safe enough having it done so I went ahead with it.

zigzag, what's the source for your reasoning that they haven't been approved properly ?

Genuine question.
Please answer.

Dont have the link answer to immediately hand but have seen documentation last year from the vaccine companies regarding the trial/development stages that the trial period ends at end of 2022, until then they have been licensed for use in an emergency situation but have not been given the green light for full use outside of this. This is backed up for example by the Swiss Government saying they will not subject their population to what is still in essence a trial, they are saying that they need more data before making that call, which is why they are not using all the vaccines that the UK is.

Throughout there as been an awful lot of obfuscation of information, I think deliberately but thats anothe rdiscussion (were rules either rules, guidelines, or law for example), in the case of the vaccines then its been said they have been given the go-ahead without mentioning that this isnt the full go-ahead as with other vaccines but is for use in the emergency situation, there is a subtle but important difference.

For many the vaccines will be perfectly safe but they havent been tested on many different groups, for example pregnant women, nor have they been subject to the usual medium/long term trials to see if complications/side effects call them what you will are evident after say 2 or 5 years, you cannot shortcut this process. Its well documented that there have been significant long term side effects on some from the SARS vaccine that was effectively co-erced on medical staff at the time of the SARs outbreak, this was rushed through to combat a perceived imminent threat, but years down the line side effects are emerging. Add to this the Government has removed liability form the vaccine companies should there be any ill effects, and I start to question things.

I have had Covid, as have 4 million others, I have tested for antibodies so I am unsure as to why I am being pushed into having a vaccine for something I am already protected against, I had mumps and measles as a child and so the medical profession believes this gives me a degree of immunity so I dont need the MMR jab that my kids have had, but the Government wants to force all those who have had covid to have a vaccine, I just dont get why (which then inevitably leads the mind to wander to an ulterior motive, such as either continued profits for big pharma, heath passports, etc, or at the more extreme end of the scale the great reset, Im sure its not the latter but the lack of debate and transparency concerns me that there is more to this than meets the eye).

Im not anti vax, Im vaxed upto the eyeballs with the regular ones, I think it should be left to the individual to make a risk/reward judgement. I have encouraged my parents in their 80s with severe co-morbidies to have the vax (indeed I made the decision for my mum who is in late stage dementia through power of attorney), for me healthy early 50s never any health issues Im less certain and would like a much more open debate, for my teenage kids there is no chance of them having the vaccine yet. Its all risk vs percieved threat vs reward.

There is nothing we can do about other countries wishing you to be vaxed for entry, that is entirely upto them, you have a choice to visit or not. But a domestic vaccination passport has never been required or even on the tabel until now, do we really wish to live in a society where people are forced to take a vaccine to live what was just 12mths ago considered a normal life (cinema, restaurant, shops, Elland Road etc etc). Were the people who are now advocating this split in society, for that is what will happen, advocating this a year ago, I think not.

Its the consequences of not being able to partake in society, which has never before happened, should a person not wish to take the vaccine that need to be debated and made transparent by the Government. Vaccination should be a free choice, there should be no disadvantage to those who do not wish to be vaccinated, just as there is no discrimation against those who for example chose to eat an unhealthy diet. This a fundamental change to society and the country, it need proper open scrutiny, that should reveal that for a huge majority covid isnt deadly (indeed Whitty is on record as saying this), which should then lead to a debate as to why we are going headlong down a route of regular testing and mass vaccinations - this response simply isnt proportional to the threat.

We have a very complex attitude to health risk in this country, some want to force vaccinations on all whether there is a need for it or not, whilst they are happy with cigarrettes being sold to anyone over 16 in every corner shop which can lead to cancer which is a far far bigger killer than covid ever will be. Bizarre.

The Government thinks it can bring immortality and erradicate covid, it cannot, we need to re-appraise the approach, the cost benefit, the health and societal impact, and a health passport would be the most significant society change in generations, and not a change for teh good it can only bring division and unrest. The fact the Government has gone full steam down one and one only course of action from day 1, dismissing out of hand any dissent, tells me something isnt quite right.

[zigzag]

Bang, heres a link to a US Gvt site which states trials expected to end 27 October 2022, this isnt what I had seen last year, this is for the Modena vaccine, but there are other similar links available for other vaccines

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04470427

[Selby White]

Bang, heres a link to a US Gvt site which states trials expected to end 27 October 2022, this isnt what I had seen last year, this is for the Modena vaccine, but there are other similar links available for other vaccines

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04470427

Don't think anyone is arguing its an ongoing trial and 2 years is a full trial period, but seriously i worked in a chemical industry (although an engineer not chemist but see how it works) it wasn't pharmaceuticals but similar systems and 90%+ of development is in the early days, the time trials just confirm what you already know.
Everything so far is fine and the alternative of waiting 2 years is not worth thinking about IMHO.

This vaccine is approved in the US, since Dec if memory serves me right as its passed safety tests.
Its been approved as in the UK on a temporary certificate again wont argue.

The chances of death or serious complications in the next two years are very minimal, its passed every test so far and its very rare for problems after this point, far less than the chance of dying of developing serious illness with Covid (As I said earlier for me its a proven killer against a unknown).

I'll have the vaccination based on how I see the odds of the worst case scenario. In fact I believe once the world opens up again the most vulnerable will be those that haven't had the vaccine.

I can appreciate what you are saying about a Vaccination passport but as I said earlier I'm personally not against it, think it will come in for travel at least, but lets see, its certainly not cast in stone.

Smoking as you say is a killer with 78,000 deaths a year in the UK, Covid in the last 12 months is slightly bigger.
The difference is that smoking is a self choice now its eliminated a lot of passive smoking with the ban on public places, its also not infectious in the same was as Covid.

[Selby White]

[quote="

2) when the trial period will be over, because we are still in the trail period - the vaccines have been authorised for emergency use they havent been given the all clear, and Macron has said that the UK has rushed into its vaccine roll out, Switzerland has said it wil not put its population through a medical experiment as some examples of urging caution - Switzerland does not have the density of population we have, higher density = higher chance of spread. I'm sure many countries will do things different that is their option, time will tell of course.

Just to clarify.
Switzerland have got a vaccination programme, done over half a million which given a low population is a higher percentage than many other European countries.

https://www.thelocal.ch/20210211/more-t ... itzerland/

[johnh]

Took her indoors to the Windsor eye hospital today for her third eye injection. As we are still in lock-down, I was surprised at the amount of traffic and people about in general. We were in the previous lock-down when I took her for the second injection and the roads and environment generally, were a lot quieter.

[zigzag]

[quote="

2) when the trial period will be over, because we are still in the trail period - the vaccines have been authorised for emergency use they havent been given the all clear, and Macron has said that the UK has rushed into its vaccine roll out, Switzerland has said it wil not put its population through a medical experiment as some examples of urging caution - Switzerland does not have the density of population we have, higher density = higher chance of spread. I'm sure many countries will do things different that is their option, time will tell of course.

Just to clarify.
Switzerland have got a vaccination programme, done over half a million which given a population is a higher percentage than many other European countries.

https://www.thelocal.ch/20210211/more-t ... itzerland/

Yes it does but they are not using all the vaccines as they want more data on some of them