Is it time to move on?

Leeds United news here, transfer rumours, club affairs, players, fans, etc.
Specific match discussions should go in the category below.
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Leonickroberts
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Re: Is it time to move on?

Post by Leonickroberts »

CanuckMightyWhite wrote:Don’t get me wrong, I am behind Bielsa. He single handedly orchestrated our success over the last 3 years, but his flaws are all there to be seen and only he can rectify them.
All I said was stubbornness, others have said something similar such as “needs to be flexible”, “try something else”, “play players in their right positions”, “square pegs in round holes “.
Basically his player selection has been the issue this season, and I think time has come for Radz and co to have a chat with him on how we can stay in this division. Simple as that, can’t let it slide too much now.
I agree with you that he is stubborn, and also with others that 90% of the time this is a strength not a weakness. But it's not black and white is it. We want a manager who has complete faith in their tactical system, player selection, game management, training regime etc. What we don't want is a manager who fails to recognise the need to adapt when there is a clear need to. There's such a fine line between the former and the latter.

The blame isn't squarely at Bielsa's door, but, for example, there's a reasonable argument that Bielsa's insistence on a small squad and playing players all over the pitch, while paying dividends almost all the time, is the single largest reason for our injury crisis (it's not a crisis if you have good-enough backups). Similarly, the lack of a CM is clearly hindering us. For Bielsa, nobody fitted the bill 3 transfer windows in a row and we've clearly been short of quality and depth there, even with Forshaw, and I find it fundamentally impossible to believe there hasn't been a single suitable player out there for two years. For me, that is stubbornness that you'd hope a manager can learn from, particularly if, as you say Canuck, it happens every season.

We're all smart enough on here to recognise that it's possible to question aspects of Bielsa's management while also recognising he's changed the club from top to bottom, given us the best years in a decade and a half, and is still the right man for the job. I firmly believe he is the man for the job for the rest of this season, and really want him to see his project through for long enough that our exciting u23s break through. I also suspect he'll see this as his last at Leeds regardless of whether we survive or not. But I reserve the right to think there are aspects of his approach which have never really worked, and that he should consider evolving.
'When he plays on snow, he doesn't leave any footprints’
CanuckMightyWhite
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Re: Is it time to move on?

Post by CanuckMightyWhite »

Leonickroberts wrote:
CanuckMightyWhite wrote:Don’t get me wrong, I am behind Bielsa. He single handedly orchestrated our success over the last 3 years, but his flaws are all there to be seen and only he can rectify them.
All I said was stubbornness, others have said something similar such as “needs to be flexible”, “try something else”, “play players in their right positions”, “square pegs in round holes “.
Basically his player selection has been the issue this season, and I think time has come for Radz and co to have a chat with him on how we can stay in this division. Simple as that, can’t let it slide too much now.
I agree with you that he is stubborn, and also with others that 90% of the time this is a strength not a weakness. But it's not black and white is it. We want a manager who has complete faith in their tactical system, player selection, game management, training regime etc. What we don't want is a manager who fails to recognise the need to adapt when there is a clear need to. There's such a fine line between the former and the latter.

The blame isn't squarely at Bielsa's door, but, for example, there's a reasonable argument that Bielsa's insistence on a small squad and playing players all over the pitch, while paying dividends almost all the time, is the single largest reason for our injury crisis (it's not a crisis if you have good-enough backups). Similarly, the lack of a CM is clearly hindering us. For Bielsa, nobody fitted the bill 3 transfer windows in a row and we've clearly been short of quality and depth there, even with Forshaw, and I find it fundamentally impossible to believe there hasn't been a single suitable player out there for two years. For me, that is stubbornness that you'd hope a manager can learn from, particularly if, as you say Canuck, it happens every season.

We're all smart enough on here to recognise that it's possible to question aspects of Bielsa's management while also recognising he's changed the club from top to bottom, given us the best years in a decade and a half, and is still the right man for the job. I firmly believe he is the man for the job for the rest of this season, and really want him to see his project through for long enough that our exciting u23s break through. I also suspect he'll see this as his last at Leeds regardless of whether we survive or not. But I reserve the right to think there are aspects of his approach which have never really worked, and that he should consider evolving.
Well said!
I hope this topic is all moot when we get 4-6 points from the next 2 games and another 2-4 from the following 4 set of games.
We do need to act in January though regardless ….. by getting a couple more bodies in, one of which is a CM and the other a goal scoring option. Loan or otherwise.
We are at a point in the season where style matters not, scrappy wins will do. In Bielsa I trust, can’t fathom anyone else for the time being, just wish he tries something different to break this bad run of form.
I hope he gets to choose when he walks away and when he does he leaves us in a good enough position squad wise to kick on.
The Fonz
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Re: Is it time to move on?

Post by The Fonz »

"I'm fully behind Bielsa but he needs Radz to tell him how to do his job"

I will try work that out.

The question of the thread "Is it time to move on?"

For me it's 100% No but respect if others think different but not let's waffle it's simple question Yes or No.

A 2nd question should be added "who do you think could do a better job?"

The way I look at it there is a big car race but we have secured the services of Lewis Hamilton to drive for us. However we only have a Vauxall Viva but as expected we finish of the Hillman Imps (Norwich) & Reliant Robins (Newcastle) and that is fine. Which we should expect.
But we also pick off a few Ford Capris and Volvos plus the odd BMW that gets a puncture.
That would be good but our supporters see the Ferraris, Porches and Laborginis out front and think swapping Hamilton with one of their drivers would solve the issue.
We end up with Bottas.

Moral of the story "careful what you wish for"
CanuckMightyWhite
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Re: Is it time to move on?

Post by CanuckMightyWhite »

The Fonz wrote:"I'm fully behind Bielsa but he needs Radz to tell him how to do his job"

I will try work that out.

The question of the thread "Is it time to move on?"

For me it's 100% No but respect if others think different but not let's waffle it's simple question Yes or No.

A 2nd question should be added "who do you think could do a better job?"

The way I look at it there is a big car race but we have secured the services of Lewis Hamilton to drive for us. However we only have a Vauxall Viva but as expected we finish of the Hillman Imps (Norwich) & Reliant Robins (Newcastle) and that is fine. Which we should expect.
But we also pick off a few Ford Capris and Volvos plus the odd BMW that gets a puncture.
That would be good but our supporters see the Ferraris, Porches and Laborginis out front and think swapping Hamilton with one of their drivers would solve the issue.
We end up with Bottas.

Moral of the story "careful what you wish for"
With all due respect, Fonz, this isn’t a yes or no without a but.
My answer is no but there needs to be a conversation. Everyone in every job is accountable, and performance reviews conducted etc etc. This is no different, it isn’t even about telling Bielsa to do his job, it is about understanding how he is going to fix it, and how the management can support with a window of opportunity in January.
It shouldn’t come down to the only way Bielsa knows is the only way it’s going to get done. Last thing we want is to keep doing the same thing, then relegate and Bielsa walks away. I’d rather tell Bielsa things ain’t working, we collectively as club management need to do something in January and adjust our tactical style/player selection rather than fall into the trap we’re setting ourselves up to.
Clarke One Nil
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Re: Is it time to move on?

Post by Clarke One Nil »

I try to view things through a long-term perspective, although it can be hard emotionally during a spell of bad results. Turning a becalmed mid-table championship side into a top premiership club is a major project that could easily take a decade, particularly given the crazy financial environment of football today.

Radrizzani bought the club less than five years ago, and Bielsa is here less than four years. The progress since then has been phenomenal. There have been ups and downs and there will be more of them, but that doesn’t mean that the plan isn’t working. It was never going to be success in a straight line.
Bielsa_revolution
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Re: Is it time to move on?

Post by Bielsa_revolution »

Read the whole thing. Though some fine points are being made, I still can't believe this is actually a debate. The guy takes a mediocre championship side, promotes it to the Premiership in his second season in charge, after sixteen years of roaming the desert, and you ask whether or not you should get rid of him because of a spell of bad results? Are we not aware that there are several key players with long term injuries? Or are we not satisfied with that explanation for some reason?

I'm all in for democracy and debates, but this just shows the wrong state of mind, and it's completely oblivious of everything that led to this. Football fans really have no memory.

The guy's style of play brought us here in an incredible fashion, I don't mind if he sticks to it. Our role is believe in it, and above all, SUPPORT him. Not ask if he should be gone. As MB said:

- Don't love me because I won, I need you to love me in order to win. (Original: "No me quieras porque gané, necesito que me quieras para ganar")
Last edited by Bielsa_revolution on 01 Dec 2021, 17:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Another Northern Soul
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Re: Is it time to move on?

Post by Another Northern Soul »

Bielsa_revolution wrote:Read the whole thing. Though some fine points are being made, I still can't believe this is actually a debate. The guy takes a mediocre championship side, promotes it to the Premiership in his second season in charge, after sixteen years of roaming the desert, and you ask whether or not you should get rid of him because of a spell of bad results? Are we not aware that there are several key players with long term injuries? Or are we not satisfied with that explanation for some reason?

I'm all in for democracy and debates, but this just shows the wrong state of mind, and it's completely oblivious of everything that led to this. Football fans really have no memory.

The guy's style of play brought us here in an incredible fashion, I don't mind if he sticks to it. Our role is believe in it, and above all, SUPPORT him. Not ask if he should be gone. As MB said:

- Don't love because I won, I need you to love me in order to win. (Original: "No me quieras porque gané, necesito que me quieras para ganar")
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Davycc
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Re: Is it time to move on?

Post by Davycc »

Bielsa_revolution wrote:
- Don't love because I won, I need you to love me in order to win. (Original: "No me quieras porque gané, necesito que me quieras para ganar")
Love that :thumbup:
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The Fonz
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Re: Is it time to move on?

Post by The Fonz »

Clarke One Nil wrote:I try to view things through a long-term perspective, although it can be hard emotionally during a spell of bad results. Turning a becalmed mid-table championship side into a top premiership club is a major project that could easily take a decade, particularly given the crazy financial environment of football today.

Radrizzani bought the club less than five years ago, and Bielsa is here less than four years. The progress since then has been phenomenal. There have been ups and downs and there will be more of them, but that doesn’t mean that the plan isn’t working. It was never going to be success in a straight line.
Nail on the head.

Well said. :thumbup:
The Fonz
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Posts: 865
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Re: Is it time to move on?

Post by The Fonz »

Bielsa_revolution wrote:Read the whole thing. Though some fine points are being made, I still can't believe this is actually a debate. The guy takes a mediocre championship side, promotes it to the Premiership in his second season in charge, after sixteen years of roaming the desert, and you ask whether or not you should get rid of him because of a spell of bad results? Are we not aware that there are several key players with long term injuries? Or are we not satisfied with that explanation for some reason?

I'm all in for democracy and debates, but this just shows the wrong state of mind, and it's completely oblivious of everything that led to this. Football fans really have no memory.

The guy's style of play brought us here in an incredible fashion, I don't mind if he sticks to it. Our role is believe in it, and above all, SUPPORT him. Not ask if he should be gone. As MB said:

- Don't love me because I won, I need you to love me in order to win. (Original: "No me quieras porque gané, necesito que me quieras para ganar")
Brilliant post in my opinion :thumbup:
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